Universal Salvation

[Scott Hutchinson]

I have studied universalism before.
This site explains their teachings.
http://tentmaker.org

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

I promised that I would not allow myself to be drawn into this debate/discussion, however, after reading all of the things you have written, especially the statements quoted, I would like to ask one thing of you, namely this:

Please provide at least one scriptural passage which reveals the length of time that this "purging (of) the sinner" lasts. Will it be one day, a week, month, year, or perhaps decades, or centuries? Being confident that you cannot provide at least one scriptural passage to support such an absurd allegation, then by your own words you have just blown your "theory" of UR right out of the window!

Yes, I know, you say that Young's translation of the Bible asserts this, but just who is Young? Is he such a pious mortal that he cannot be deceived into embracing and publishing something that is in error? Young is a fallible mortal, just as you and I. And we have been warned of the consequences of placing our dependence upon man instead of God. At least the contents of the KJV of the Bible were written by a group of men, which seems to me to adhere more closely to the biblical requirement to ascertain the truthfulness of things through the words of two or more witnesses.

Papa,

I have no need to provide a scripture to determine the actual length of time, the very fact that there are other well documented meanings to the words that have been manipulated to mean "unending" is sufficient in and of its self.

While I respect the KJV, the truth is it was authorized by King James not King Jesus. King James was very interested in supporting the apostate church with an "authorized" canon of scripture. Oh, and BTW it has been revised over 300 times since 1611. Yes, the true revelation of God is presented, but one must look beyond the biases of the translators. "The letter killeth, the Spirit makes alive."

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

I have studied universalism before.
This site explains their teachings.
http://tentmaker.org

Thanks, Bro. Scott there is alot of very good information at this site. I don't agree with all of it, but is is a very good resource for the sincere.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This is a very powerful verse of scripture you have presented, which tells us an individual must hear the "good news" in order to enter into the life of Christ. I believe all will hear eventually.

CJ, the hearing that the writer is speaking about is teaching. When we look at the chapter it's speaking about those hearing the word, not just as audible sound but as instruction. When you say that eventually all will hear the word that is not true. During the first century AD their were people living in east Asia, Australia, North and South America who never hear the teachings of Christ. So please CJ explain your thought on how every single human being from Adam to now will be saved?

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;140271]CJ, the hearing that the writer is speaking about is teaching. When we look at the chapter it's speaking about those hearing the word, not just as audible sound but as instruction. When you say that eventually all will hear the word that is not true. During the first century AD their were people living in east Asia, Australia, North and South America who never hear the teachings of Christ. So please CJ explain your thought on how every single human being from Adam to now will be saved?

Romans 5:10-21
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
1John 2:2 "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world"

These verses and many more explain my faith in the greater hope of all mankind.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The blood of Jesus has a blanket application to the human race, just as Adam's sin was applied as a blanket to the human race. The scripture clearly presents these facts. All are reconciled to God because of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. This is legal justification, then there is relational forgiveness that must be accomplished by faith in each individual, in order for the individual to walk in their own salvation. As in "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." You were your wife's legal husband when you married her, yet the relational fact had to be worked out, in order for you to truly be her husband.

We are all reconciled, yet many are not yet relational with God.

Just so that I know where you are coming from, would you say that Romans 5 is about the strongest passage that promotes what you believe? That chapter came up with a person whom I know who believes this as well.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just so that I know where you are coming from, would you say that Romans 5 is about the strongest passage that promotes what you believe? That chapter came up with a person whom I know who believes this as well.

I will have to review to see if I would say this is the strongest. I will attempt to make of list of some of the references.

I am currently reading: Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin found at:http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I will have to review to see if I would say this is the strongest. I will attempt to make of list of some of the references.10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I am currently reading: Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin found at:

Col 1 gets into the issue of reconciliation. When we deal with any issue like reconciliation, we have to gather all the scriptures that pertain to it and see the overall picture.

Col 1:14-23 KJV In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Notice that there is a condition placed upon the thought of reconciliation of all things. It says that we human beings are only reconciled IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH. Even after salv ation, we must CONTINUE, so that throws out Calvinism right there. But the reference to reconciling all things is clearly shown to have a condition when it comes to people.

NOW we have been reconciled. Other things will be done oso later. But when it comes to PEOPLE, that is being done NOW. Notice the word NOW in verse 21 and the condition associated with it in verse 23.

Although ALL THINGS are reconciled by Christ, we clearly see the condition involved in the same context.

[mfblume]

Romans 5 teaches that Christ's work of reconciliation was greater than Adam's work of damning mankind, in an UNDOING type fashion.

We all agree with that.

The manner to properly study any given passage of scripture is to consider WHY IT IS WRITTEN in the book in which it is found, in consideration of the overall point of the book. What does this tidbit add to the overall book of Romans.

We know Romans is primarily written to believers in order to teach them of their victory in Christ over sin, and to start enjoying that victory in the here and now, and not yield to sin and not be condemned all the time.

The very first chapter starts with a contrast of SPIRIT and FLESH.

Rom 1:3-4 KJV Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

It's a flesh versus spirit thing.


That is why Romans 8 gets into the issue of walking after the Spirit and not the flesh. Even Jesus is indicated to have both elements to deal with, as we do, in His incarnation.

Romans 5 shows ATONEMENT in Christ before Romans 6 speaks of how ATONEMENT is involved in His vicarious death for us into which we are baptized to actualize that vicarious death in our lives so we do not live under sin AFTER WE ARE SAVED. See 5:11.

Verses 13 through to 17 are indicated in parentheses in the KJV to indicate that entire passage is elaborating on something said in verse 12, until we reconvene the contextual flow of the chapter in verse 18.

Verse 18 says the free gift came upon all men as much as death came upon all men due to Adam. That free gift is righteousness. It is as though all men sinned, when in reality they were born in it and were sinners before they committed any single act of sin, due to having death passed over them all because of Adam's transgression.

Adam's act was adapted to the entire race of humanity. Christ's work on the cross also is adapted to the entire race. HOW that is adapted is the question. UR's say it is adapted in the simple sense that if all men were made sinners without their choice, by the same token all men must be made righteous with or without their choice. hence, Universal salvation.

Think about this. Adam's plight messed up the human race to stand without any hope of recovery. Justice has to be done due to sin, so everyone MUST DIE. God's plan could not circumvent the need for all men to DIE if they were sinners. BUT ALL HAVE A CHANCE at recovery now.

Contrary to Calvinism, Christ died FOR all and it is unlimited as to who can be saved. Calvinism says it IS Limited to God's design as to who is lost and who is saved. So Calvinism is out, right away. Romans 5 proves that. Calvinism says His death is sufficient for all, but only efficacious to those whom God predestinated to enjoy it.

The TERM "ALL" is the issue. UR says ALL means ALL. So if Christ reconciled ALL to himself, as Adam made ALL men sinners, then nobody will be lost in the end. But ALL does not always mean ALL as some think.

"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable."

This would be a total statement of chaos if one considered ALL in the above verse as UR's consider it in Romans 5. If everything that exists is lawful, and yet everything that exists is not profitable, then NOTHING is profitable. And nothing that exists is unlawful. Common sense tells us that is not the intent. He actually said "All things THAT ARE lawful, are lawful for me."

Act 22:15 KJV For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Was Paul actually witness to every man in existence? Of course not. People existed in other continents at that day who never heard of Paul, let alone heard his witness. So is the word wrong? No. Paul witnessed to ALL SORTS OF MEN, though.

Rom 11:12 KJV Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

WORLD above only refers to GENTILES. The Jews are not included if their fall means riches to the WORLD.

2Co 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Comparing the two verses above, we know the bible, itself, limits the universality in universal terms, showing us that we are not take the definition of the word so woodenly to it's furtherest possible conclusions. The Word, itself, limited WORLD to refer to Gentiles.

...More later as I continue to contemplate upon this.

[crakjak]

Bro. Blume,
You must do justice to the grammatical evidence that the text itself presents. Paul uses parallel structure to his presentation of these verses:Romans 5:18, "Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all." Then again in Romans 11:32, "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he be merciful to all" and in ICor. 15:22 "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ."

In each of the above texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" determines the scope of the second.

In Roman 5:18: Paul obviously has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation.

In Romans 11:32: Paul when insists that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in disobedience.

Finally, when he asserts in ICor. 15:22 that "all will be made alive in Christ," he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam.

The difference is that the parallel structure determines the scope of the "all".