Stunning Sermon On The Great Tribulation

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

For the preterists:

1. If Jesus came in 70AD, how come all eyes did not see him?

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I'll answer by providing scripture for your consideration. The key word in the passages is COMING which suggests an arrival or approach. This arrival or approach from a previous location would be seen by certain individuals or groups in the following scripture.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him [the high priest], Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see [the high priest] the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The question becomes, who saw what and when did they see it?

[berkeley]

This is fun!

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

You didn't answer the question. Why did he tell them they would see "these things". Did he mislead them?

I have answered this over and over again...

Yes, the apostles were the direct hearers of the prophecies given. BUT the apostles are a part of the church. The prophecies are meant TO and FOR the church (not just the apostles)

How many of the apostles were alive at the destruction of the temple? Did the apostles themselves WITNESS the destruction of the temple?

The Apostle James did not witness the destruction of the temple. So was he misled?
Based on Peter talking about his death in2 Peter 2:14, it is VERY LIKELY that
Peter died before 70AD. (Church history estimates his death before 70AD btw). So Peter did not see the temple destruction, hence was he misled?

The prophecies were FOR and TO the church.

Also, some of the people who witnessed the destruction of the temple WERE not even ALIVE when Jesus gave the prophecies.
So how then does "ye shall see these things..." apply to them (since they were not even alive when Jesus gave the prophecy).

This is what I'm saying. The prophecy is for the church. So regardless of who sees what part fulfilled, it is for the church.

I gave you an example of the prophecy in Deuteronomy.
Deut 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

If you consider the IMMEDIATE context, you'd say Moses was MISLEADING them when he said "unto him shall YE hearken."(at least based on your interpretation) Since the prophecy did not occur in the lives of the "ye" that Moses was speaking to.

However, the correct understanding of that prophecy was that the prophecy WAS to ISRAEL as a nation. So it does not matter per se who witnessed it AS LONG the prophecy was FULFILLED to ISRAEL.

Same thing to the church. The apostles were part of the church. The prophecy is to the Church. It is quite obvious that Jesus said ALL eyes shall see him when he comes.

You might not be satisfied with my answer, but I have answered your question.

Now, please answer:
You preterists are not dealing with the fact that Jesus said ALL EYES SHALL SEE HIM.
You preterists are not dealing with the fact that if Jesus came in 70AD, why then do we still have believers on the earth AFTER 70AD?


1. Did ALL EYES see Jesus when he came?

2. Why do we still have believers after 70AD preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ?

[shag]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I have answered this over and over again...

Yes, the apostles were the direct hearers of the prophecies given. BUT the apostles are a part of the church. The prophecies are meant TO and FOR the church (not just the apostles)

How many of the apostles were alive at the destruction of the temple? Did the apostles themselves WITNESS the destruction of the temple?

The Apostle James did not witness the destruction of the temple. So was he misled?
Based on Peter talking about his death in2 Peter 2:14, it is VERY LIKELY that
Peter died before 70AD. (Church history estimates his death before 70AD btw). So Peter did not see the temple destruction, hence was he misled?

The prophecies were FOR and TO the church.

Also, some of the people who witnessed the destruction of the temple WERE not even ALIVE when Jesus gave the prophecies.
So how then does "ye shall see these things..." apply to them (since they were not even alive when Jesus gave the prophecy).

This is what I'm saying. The prophecy is for the church. So regardless of who sees what part fulfilled, it is for the church.

I gave you an example of the prophecy in Deuteronomy.
Deut 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

If you consider the IMMEDIATE context, you'd say Moses was MISLEADING them when he said "unto him shall YE hearken."(at least based on your interpretation) Since the prophecy did not occur in the lives of the "ye" that Moses was speaking to.

However, the correct understanding of that prophecy was that the prophecy WAS to ISRAEL as a nation. So it does not matter per se who witnessed it AS LONG the prophecy was FULFILLED to ISRAEL.

Same thing to the church. The apostles were part of the church. The prophecy is to the Church. It is quite obvious that Jesus said ALL eyes shall see him when he comes.

You might not be satisfied with my answer, but I have answered your question.

Now, please answer:
You preterists are not dealing with the fact that Jesus said ALL EYES SHALL SEE HIM.
You preterists are not dealing with the fact that if Jesus came in 70AD, why then do we still have believers on the earth AFTER 70AD?


1. Did ALL EYES see Jesus when he came?

2. Why do we still have believers after 70AD preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Per your first question:

1. Jn. 14:19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me....

Please explain how Jesus could say "the world will never see him anymore", if every eye will see him.



Scripture says Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

Rev. 1:7 parallell with Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.



2.) Did they see God literally ride on a cloud?




3.) Is Jesus also gonna ride in on a white stallion?
Rev. 19 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True...



Eph. 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints


Per your 2nd question:

4.) . In Matt., Jesus compares the coming of the Son of man in veangance with the flood that came and took away the sinners. Can you explain that?




You said earlier that this was fullfilled in their (Jesus day)generation:

matt. 23: 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.


which is speaking of the same as Matt. 21 (wouldnt U admit?)

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”





5.) Was vs. 40 fullfilled in their generation, just like U admited it was with Matt. 23:34-36?, (as it is speaking of the same thing you already said was fullfilled in their generation per your post on pg. 9, I believe).

[shag]

If the great tribulation is a world wide future tribulation for us:
(Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21)
Why did Jesus only tell those living in Judea to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:16)?

Does EVERYONE need to pray that their flight not be in winter or on the Sabbath?
Why?

And why did Daniel only refer to it occurring to those who were the “children of thy people”?



__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

The Great Tribulation
Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by shag

Per your first question:

1. Jn. 14:19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me....

Please explain how Jesus could say "the world will never see him anymore", if every eye will see him.

You are answering a question with a question. You (not me) are supposed to tell us what he meant by EVERY eye shall see him.

FYI: John 14 is not speaking of his coming AFTER the tribulation. He is speaking of his coming on the day of Pentecost.
John 14
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Notice the day he is speaking of here is the day that he (JESUS) shall BE IN THEM (Pentecost). Thus, that has no bearing on his VISIBLE second coming as stated in Acts 1:11, Matt 24, Luke 21

From the day of pentecost till today, only disciples of Jesus SEE Jesus. The world cannot SEE him. We see him 'cause we have his Holy Spirit. In Matt 24 though, he said ALL the EARTH will see him. Totally two different events.

Originally Posted by shag

Scripture says Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

Rev. 1:7 parallell with Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

2.) Did they see God literally ride on a cloud?
3.) Is Jesus also gonna ride in on a white stallion?
Rev. 19 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True...

Eph. 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints

Again, so far, you have asked more questions. You did NOT give an answer to EVERY eye shall see him

Moreover, in my response to both Truthseeker and you, I explained my answer to how the prophecies were to the church all throughout the church age (not only the apostles). AND I cited another example from Deuteronomy 18.

So can you please answer the question, how did ALL eyes see him?

Originally Posted by shag

Per your 2nd question:

4.) . In Matt., Jesus compares the coming of the Son of man in veangance with the flood that came and took away the sinners. Can you explain that?

You are answering a question with question. Again, you (not me) are supposed to explain to us the catching away that occurred in 70AD and why we still have believers AFTER 70AD?

Originally Posted by shag

You said earlier that this was fullfilled in their (Jesus day)generation:

matt. 23: 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.


which is speaking of the same as Matt. 21 (wouldnt U admit?)

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”




5.) Was vs. 40 fullfilled in their generation, just like U admited it was with Matt. 23:34-36?, (as it is speaking of the same thing you already said was fullfilled in their generation per your post on pg. 9, I believe).

Well, earlier on, you asked a question about how I understand "ye shall see these things…this generation shall see these things…". I gave you my response. Now, I do understand that you might not agree with my response, but at least I gave you one.

Thus, it's only fair that you respond to the questions listed above before I proceed to give a response about Matt 21 and Matt 23.
However, in the spirit of answering questions with more questions, here's something to consider:

Matt 21
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Jesus said the kingdom was taken from ISRAEL(we agree on that) in that parable.

Now consider the words of the Apostles:
Acts 1
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Notice the Apostles asked Jesus WHEN the kingdom will be RESTORED to ISRAEL.
Notice that Jesus DID NOT say the kingdom WILL NOT be restored to Israel. He only said the Apostles need not worry about the timing when the kingdom will be restored to ISRAEL.
So has the kingdom ALREADY been restored to ISRAEL?

Just something to consider in correlating Matthew 21 with Matthew 23. However, I await your response to the TWO questions I posed earlier before proceeding further about the parable in Matthew 21.

[shag]

OK brother, fair enough. I will answer as simple as I can

Question # 1 in my opinion(referencing Rev 1:7, Matt. 24:30), does not mean that literally every eye on the face of the planet that has ever lived, dead or alive, man, woman,(or animal, fish, fowl, or beast) is going to literally see Jesus come on a cloud. (ftr, neither do I believe "all tribes of the earth mourn because of him" represents everybody on the face of the planet living or dead will mourn because of him..., not sure how U "see" it)

Question#2. I believe there are still people preaching Christ, because there are sinners that need to here the gospel.

Now please answer all my questions.

[shag]

More concernng "every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him.....



Jesus was quoting from Zech. 12:10 in Matt. 24:30, and its "parallell" verse is also Rev. 1:7 .



Zechariah was dealing with a time when Jerusalem would be surrounded and besieged, 12:2,11; 13:8 14:2. In Matthew 24 the subject is the destruction of Jerusalem, 24:1-3. In Revelation the theme is the destruction of the great city "where our Lord was crucified," 11:8. In all three texts you have the coming of the Lord, Zech.14:3-5; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 1:7. In each of the texts those who pierced him would see him, Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7. And all three events were set in a specific time frame "in that day." Zech.12; "this generation shall not pass away," Matthew 24:34; and "the time is at hand," Rev.1:3.


Matthew 24 cited Zechariah 12 as to be fulfilled at his return in Jerusalem's fall, that in Revelation, it emphatically tells us it would shortly come to pass (l:l-3).




Also...
Matt. 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!


Why did that tick off Ciaphis so very badly, to rent his clothes and say He spoke blasphemy? Because Ciaphis recognized what He meant, that He was speaking similarly as Isaiah 19:1 concerning the judgment on Egypt. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah "rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt." We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud.




John the baptist warned of the wrath to come, Jesus warned of the days of veangance were when Jerusulem was surrounded by armies (Lk 21) and told them their house will be left desolate. He had said all the blood from Able to present would be filled up in their generation. He said the owner of the vineyard would destroy the wicked tennants that killed the servants that preceded Jesus, as well as Jesus himself. It was a coming of the Lord in judgment, the owner of the vineyard, to destroy the wicked tennants(pharisees) that killed the prophets and crucified our Lord. Zecharia 12 matches Rev 1:7 concerning the mourning of the tribes of Israel, and when it would take place....

[berkeley]

Oh, come on, Shag! It can't be that simple. LOL

[Michael The Disciple]

Zechariah was dealing with a time when Jerusalem would be surrounded and besieged, 12:2,11; 13:8 14:2. In Matthew 24 the subject is the destruction of Jerusalem, 24:1-3. In Revelation the theme is the destruction of the great city "where our Lord was crucified," 11:8. In all three texts you have the coming of the Lord, Zech.14:3-5; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 1:7. In each of the texts those who pierced him would see him, Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7. And all three events were set in a specific time frame "in that day." Zech.12; "this generation shall not pass away," Matthew 24:34; and "the time is at hand," Rev.1:3.

Problem with this? In Zech. 12 Israel is given a great victory!
Zech. 12:3-9

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces , though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This is the opposite of what happened in 70 ad. Israel suffered a great defeat. Zechariah's prophecy is still future.