You think Trinitarians accept you?

[Jermyn Davidson]

The HUGE problem I see in equating speaking in tongues with the New Birth taught in the Bible is that this thinking lends itself to the false idea that a person is not saved until they speak in tongues.


So to avoid this pitfall, I WILL NOT equate speaking in tongues with the New Birth.

The Bible does not make that connection for every New Birth conversion and I will not add to the Bible.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Are we not born again of the Spirit at the point of saving faith?


When a soul is justified by faith, who is it that justifies? Is not the One who justifies the One living inside the temple of the now justified?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Falla39

[/B]

When you are born again, you WILL speak in tongues as the SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE!!

Deltaguitar,

In my many, many years, I have seen many, many people, both young and older, receive the HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT. Without exception, they all spoke with tongues. I have seen some who got a blessing and claimed to have received the Holy Ghost. They never seemed to thrieve/grow.They were like those that Paul spoke of in 2 Timothy 3:7 " Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth".

When a person speaks in tongues AS THE SPIRIT gives the UTTERANCE, THAT IS PROOF to the unbeliever that the SPIRIT was PRESENT! HIS PRESENCE was there! We are only deceiving ourselves in believing otherwise!

When we allow the enemy (whoever it may be) to convince us otherwise, we could be like those who had not a love for the truth, that they might be saved, who could be given over to a mind that cannot "see" or rightly comprehend the kingdom of God. It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living GOD!

Falla39

I too have seen hundreds, if not thousands, "speak in tongues". Both my parents, sister, and my little brother all speak in tongues all the time. Remember, I am from a very strong Apostolic family. The heritage runs deep. My daughter and son would have been 6th generation Pentecostals and they are the main reason I left the movement. I wasn't going to allow them to go through that. However, I do believe speaking in tongues is real at times.

I didn't stop believing in the baptism because I hated UPC or that I wanted to leave the church. It wasn't until after I left over the three-step position that I started questioning other things. The hardest thing for me to let go of was the baptism with the evidence of speaking on other tongues because it was a huge part of my identity.

I still remember one of the first bible studies I gave after leaving the UPC was about how much the Baptism of the Holy Spirit has changed my life and I still have friends who are outside the UPC who believe this doctrine.

There are a lot of issues I have with that doctrine. Personally, I had to come to terms with my own experience and realize that I had never really spoke in tongues. Like I have said before, I was asleep and sat straight up in bed in the middle of the night and I knew that I had never had the experience that I was trying to teach others to receive. I went through a lot of guilt and shame because I knew I had been manipulated by the Pentecostal system and have taught others that they needed to receive the baptism.

Many who know me, including my parents would probably say that they have seen me speak in tongues. How does this happen? How does a person grow up in the Apostolic movement believing that they had spoken in tongues, my wife believed I had spoken in tongues, and I had fool everyone around me? I had even taught my wife, who is deaf, that she should receive the baptism.

Later, after I admitted to her that I don't think I ever spoke in tongues she said that she never understood why she came down to the altar and loved God and repented only then to be told, "it is ok, just keep praying and you will get it". I am still not sure if she has ever spoke in tongues but I think she has. Imagine the guilt and shame a person has to deal with in order to realize that everything they believe in and everything they had ever known to be true was a lie. I still thank God every day for showing me truth but I still remember how I participated in a system that hurt so many people. I can name people who will never walk into church again and will never have respect for the ministry.

I have even had people close to me tell me that they think I did speak in tongues but I just didn't know I was doing it.

The doctrine is just way to confusing and it makes christians those who are the haves and the have-nots.

I appreciate your experience and I will never say that you are lying about what you have experienced but that is all it is, an experience that you have had and I haven't.

I have been born again, baptized, I pray and study and yearn for God and his presence. For 27 years I wasn't saved and I was tormented and I firmly believe it was because I was trying to find God in a place that wasn't sincere and I was confused about the gospel because of the pentecostal doctrine.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Wow! So you really believe the pentecostal stuff? I somehow thought you were charismatic. Why do you want people to speak in tongues so bad? Do you feel like folks haven't received the Holy Spirit until they have the evidence of tongues?

Yeah AB., why not be more progressive and have the tongue speakers submit their tongues in witting to a board of elders who will read it and decide whether to approve it or not so it can then be read during the next service?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. But the people who usually become dogmatic about not having to speak in tongues as initial evidence were people who were trying so hard in the flesh to receive the Spirit that it never came. So they think EVERYONE is wrong if they think tongues are the initial evidence of Spirit baptism. They do not stop to think they may have perhaps been trying to receive the Spirit in the flesh, and that never works, anyway.

Many doctrines are formed subjectively in many people with all their millions of nuances of variables as to why they did not experience what they thought they should, which leads them to believe what they currently believe. We cannot form doctrines from subjectivity like that -- the way of seeing what happens to us personally before we believe a thing. We have to go by what the bible said objectively. It is easier to blame a doctrine than themselves for failure.

I will admit that I tried to get the baptism of the Holy Ghost many times and never did receive it. Maybe, it was because I have never heard the gospel. I do know that when God finally did save me that I did not speak in tongues.

Misunderstanding the gospel isn't just something that happens in UPC circles. I meet baptist people all the time who never understood the gospel because it was muddied by a religious systems that kept them from understanding truth.

I wasn't saved and now I know it. But you guys make it sound like it is just so easy that anyone can receive the baptism anytime they want it. All they have to do is be truly sincere and give God there all! I just cannot believe anymore that folks really truly deep down believe this doctrine.

I was told over and over, you need to yield your tongue or that you need to just stop thinking and let it happen, or that I needed to "really" repent. That is nonsense if you think about it.

Why is it that 90% of the people I known in my life that have received this "evidence" never came back to church and never showed any sign that they were born again?

If we are truly honest we have to take a hard look at this sign called the "evidence of the Holy Ghost" because he facts just do not line up. I know you guys have a reason for everything but sometimes you just have to write off folks as having the problem and that is damaging.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yeah AB., why not be more progressive and have the tongue speakers submit their tongues in witting to a board of elders who will read it and decide whether to approve it or not so it can then be read during the next service?

I really like this idea!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I too have seen hundreds, if not thousands, "speak in tongues". Both my parents, sister, and my little brother all speak in tongues all the time. Remember, I am from a very strong Apostolic family. The heritage runs deep. My daughter and son would have been 6th generation Pentecostals and they are the main reason I left the movement. I wasn't going to allow them to go through that. However, I do believe speaking in tongues is real at times.

I didn't stop believing in the baptism because I hated UPC or that I wanted to leave the church. It wasn't until after I left over the three-step position that I started questioning other things. The hardest thing for me to let go of was the baptism with the evidence of speaking on other tongues because it was a huge part of my identity.

I still remember one of the first bible studies I gave after leaving the UPC was about how much the Baptism of the Holy Spirit has changed my life and I still have friends who are outside the UPC who believe this doctrine.

There are a lot of issues I have with that doctrine. Personally, I had to come to terms with my own experience and realize that I had never really spoke in tongues. Like I have said before, I was asleep and sat straight up in bed in the middle of the night and I knew that I had never had the experience that I was trying to teach others to receive. I went through a lot of guilt and shame because I knew I had been manipulated by the Pentecostal system and have taught others that they needed to receive the baptism.

Many who know me, including my parents would probably say that they have seen me speak in tongues. How does this happen? How does a person grow up in the Apostolic movement believing that they had spoken in tongues, my wife believed I had spoken in tongues, and I had fool everyone around me? I had even taught my wife, who is deaf, that she should receive the baptism.

Later, after I admitted to her that I don't think I ever spoke in tongues she said that she never understood why she came down to the altar and loved God and repented only then to be told, "it is ok, just keep praying and you will get it". I am still not sure if she has ever spoke in tongues but I think she has. Imagine the guilt and shame a person has to deal with in order to realize that everything they believe in and everything they had ever known to be true was a lie. I still thank God every day for showing me truth but I still remember how I participated in a system that hurt so many people. I can name people who will never walk into church again and will never have respect for the ministry.

I have even had people close to me tell me that they think I did speak in tongues but I just didn't know I was doing it.

The doctrine is just way to confusing and it makes christians those who are the haves and the have-nots.

I appreciate your experience and I will never say that you are lying about what you have experienced but that is all it is, an experience that you have had and I haven't.

I have been born again, baptized, I pray and study and yearn for God and his presence. For 27 years I wasn't saved and I was tormented and I firmly believe it was because I was trying to find God in a place that wasn't sincere and I was confused about the gospel because of the pentecostal doctrine.

Is it possible you DID speak in tongues but because of the direction you have gone you questioned it and convinced yourself that you faked it and blame "the system"..Why would you do that? Maybe it's the "New System" you are in?

[NorCal]

@deltaguitar
It honestly sounds like you are fighting the spirit of deception, even with yourself.
1) You deceived others.
2) You are deceiving yourself.
3) You attempted to teach an experience that you yourself had never received (or even believed). That my friend is deception. And my GOD is not the Author of Deception. He will, however, turn someone over at let them believe a lie.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

The HUGE problem I see in equating speaking in tongues with the New Birth taught in the Bible is that this thinking lends itself to the false idea that a person is not saved until they speak in tongues.


So to avoid this pitfall, I WILL NOT equate speaking in tongues with the New Birth.

The Bible does not make that connection for every New Birth conversion and I will not add to the Bible.

I don't think AB believes that either. And I am sure all his TBN friends don't believe that way.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I was told over and over, you need to yield your tongue or that you need to just stop thinking and let it happen, or that I needed to "really" repent. That is nonsense if you think about it.

Why is it that 90% of the people I known in my life that have received this "evidence" never came back to church and never showed any sign that they were born again?

If we are truly honest we have to take a hard look at this sign called the "evidence of the Holy Ghost" because he facts just do not line up. I know you guys have a reason for everything but sometimes you just have to write off folks as having the problem and that is damaging.

That may be nonsense, really, if one thinks about it. But the misguided efforts of a few sincere "altar workers" does not make an experience untrue.

Yes it might make some people's "tongues" manipulated but that does not mean there isn't a real experience too.