This Place Is The Only Source Of...

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I cannot disagree with most of what you wrote. It hasn't been an easy doctrine to formulate or understand. I come in contact with "trinitarians" all the time who do not understand the theology. I don't completely understand it but I do know that I believe in the son prior to Bethlehem.

Even though Oneness is deemed a heresy I do not believe that the two doctrines are that far apart and I believe oneness people are saved. There are other issues that really separate the Oneness from mainline Christianity.

Why do you believe Jesus was the Son prior to Bethlehem? John calls him the Word on several occasions.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

On the tongues issue. I wish we stressed tongues/Holy Ghost as a dynamic issue and not a salvational one.

The Pentecostals that got this in the beginning of last century saw it that way. Many of them took off on missionary journeys believing they were empowered to speak the language of the other countries though obviously that did not happen.

I'd like to see more stressed placed on the gifts. Pentecostals tend to focus so much on tongues and many very conservative churches and liberal churches de-emphasize the gifts

This is EXACLTY as the Bible presents it.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

This is EXACLTY as the Bible presents it.

Depends on what type of salvation.. from sin? from hell?

According to Romans 8 the Holy Ghost is to quicken our mortal bodies so it is essential to our walk with Christ and they received tongues when they received the experience. However this is no open condemnation per say unless one truly believes the birth of the SPirit is the baptism of the HG. Thats the only way the HG baptism could be considered a heaven/hell issue.

I say the promises of God are yea and amen.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Will you convert to Trinitarianism because they do not have the expectation of every to speak in tongues?

Acts 2:38 is two commands and a promise. THE AOG while embracing the promise of the HG as a priviledge to every believer, does not emphasive their converts to earnestly seek for it.

The General Superintendent or overseer says this about the baptism of the HG "Why would you want a 4 cylinder when you can have a 6 cynliner motor"

I'm not so sure this is healthy either because it is obvious that the HG was a normulative experience for believers in the NT.

If the condemning to hell would leave and the promise stay, believers wouldn't feel so bad that they hadn't got it yet in the UPC. I think it just needs to be expressed differently so people can understand salvation is a process and just because you haven't spoken in tongues, does not mean you are not part of the body of Christ (as in baptism you unite with Christ). There is a reason though a high percentage of new converts claim the Holy Ghost baptism in the UPC. Its made imperative that is necessary and God wants everyone to have it. Threat of hell is not needed for this though in my opinion.

What if a lot of what is seen in the Pentecostal movement isn't "biblical tongues"? We have examples ranging from the ancient pagan cults to Voodoo to Sufi Islam of people speaking in unintelligible sounds. On the day of Pentecost the Apostles spoke languages that were understood by those who spoke a different native tongue. We don't see this among those who "speak in tongues" today. The tongues of today don't even reflect those governed by I Corinthians 14. Here's a video of Voodoo tongues....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxsQkKdqR2Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVSLc0cqlZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMWD5mWxMSo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mBKz...eature=related

One has to admit... it is thought provoking. Having Pentecostal roots... I find it a rather important contemplation.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What if a lot of what is seen in the Pentecostal movement isn't "biblical tongues"? We have examples ranging from the ancient pagan cults to Voodoo to Sufi Islam of people speaking in unintelligible sounds. On the day of Pentecost the Apostles spoke languages that were understood by those who spoke a different native tongue. We don't see this among those who "speak in tongues" today. The tongues of today don't even reflect those governed by I Corinthians 14. Here's a video of Voodoo tongues....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxsQkKdqR2Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVSLc0cqlZM

Now, I do take exception with these cessationists and their 'reasoning' away tongues. John MacArthur claims that the tongues in Corinthians were demonic. Let me state directly that the tongues back then are the same tongues today.

In addressing the tongues spoken at Pentecost, let us look at Acts 2.

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
(Acts 2:6 NKJV)

Notice what is said. They all heard them speak in their own language. The modern argument against tongues is that each heard someone there speak in their own language. The fact is, as tongues were spoken, they all heard them all speak in different languages. In other words, as tongues were spoken, The Parthians heard them all speak in their own language, the Greeks in their own, etc.

You are accusing tongues of being voodoo. To me, that is borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I would be very careful of not crossing that line.

[Praxeas]

And what if it's NOT Aquila and you just implicated a lot of people AND the work of the Holy Ghost attributed to Satan...not good

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

And what if it's NOT Aquila and you just implicated a lot of people AND the work of the Holy Ghost attributed to Satan...not good

I'm not going to say either way on this one, because I sincerely don't want to offend the Lord. However, the points about "tongues" as they are practiced in many churches today should cause us a pause for serious consideration.

In Pentecostalism we see cults of personality and controlling pastors.
Accentric legalism and bondage.
Even the uncut hair bit is something found among witches (some have even used occult sources to validate a supposed mystical "power" in uncut hair).

Since we see such patterns in Voodoo and other pagan religions... we do well to consider, are our tongues pagan? Or are they real and practiced biblically?

Those are fair questions. Be a Berean. Search the Scriptures. Don't go by "feeling" (sensual religion)... have faith in solid truth.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Now, I do take exception with these cessationists and their 'reasoning' away tongues. John MacArthur claims that the tongues in Corinthians were demonic. Let me state directly that the tongues back then are the same tongues today.

In addressing the tongues spoken at Pentecost, let us look at Acts 2.

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
(Acts 2:6 NKJV)

Notice what is said. They all heard them speak in their own language. The modern argument against tongues is that each heard someone there speak in their own language. The fact is, as tongues were spoken, they all heard them all speak in different languages. In other words, as tongues were spoken, The Parthians heard them all speak in their own language, the Greeks in their own, etc.

I used to see it this way too. But this would mean that the miracle is in the ears of the hearer, not the tongues themselves. It would then be a gift of "hearing" imparted to the unsaved.

You are accusing tongues of being voodoo. To me, that is borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I would be very careful of not crossing that line.

Not "accusing".

Thanks dear friend. I'm trying not to cross the line. Thank you for the admonishment. But I am bringing this up for sincere consideration. I'm not denying that the gift of tongues may be real. My question is... Is what we see in so many churches both biblical and practiced biblically?

I know how science has established that the lower nervous system takes over when one is in a hightened spiritual state leading to ecstatic language and stammering lips. We see this in things such as cults and pagan religions. No doubt, the true gift is a powerful one.

Why is it that pagan religions have had this ecstatic speech, dance, running, and falling down for thousands of years... and why would God bring Christians to experience something so "pagan-like"?

John McArthur's point about what Christ said regarding "vain repititions" caused me serious pause.

Matthew 6:7 (King James Version)
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen (Pagans) do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

In Pentecostalism we see cults of personality and controlling pastors.

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

Accentric legalism and bondage.

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

Even the uncut hair bit is something found among witches (some have even used occult sources to validate a supposed mystical "power" in uncut hair)

Please tie the above statement to tongues

Since we see such patterns in Voodoo and other pagan religions... we do well to consider, are our tongues pagan? Or are they real and practiced biblically?

Ive yet to see worshipers of Jesus in paganism associated with tongues. Remember tongues has occurred in Christianity many times over the centuries and as seen in the Wesleyans, was associated with a group of people who prayed and worshipped Jesus, not the Devil

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

True. However, those led of the Holy Spirit wouldn't lead in such a way.

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

True. However, those led of the Holy Spirit wouldn't lead in such a way. Tongues aren't necessarily tied to this. But error does beget error.

Please tie the above statement to tongues

If an entire movement would embrace a pagan notion such as "magic hair", are they beyond embracing a form of spirit possession as seen in Voodoo that has "tongues" and ecstatic experiences? I've been in services where the women took their hair down while speaking in unintelligiable tongues and moved ecstatically with hair flailing to fight spirits, hanging their hair over children, and the sick in order to minister "healing". Is this "Christian" or even "biblical"?

Ive yet to see worshipers of Jesus in paganism associated with tongues.

I have. See my statement above.

Remember tongues has occurred in Christianity many times over the centuries and as seen in the Wesleyans, was associated with a group of people who prayed and worshipped Jesus, not the Devil

Yes. However, we also know that Satan has repeatedly sought to infiltrate the church. How do we know that what we see as "outpourings" aren't actually "invasions"? Also, these were Trinitarians. Why would the Holy Ghost fall on those in false doctrine? According to us... they don't even worship the true God. I know many Apostolics who teach that the Trinitarian experiences should be regarded as demonic. Certainly you've heard this, right?

Paul wrote,

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

In the last days we'd expect to see a rise in seducing spiritism and doctrines of devils within the church.

It's something that I think should cause every Pentecostal to search themselves, to be assured that what they are practicing isn't of the enemy. Does the gift bring religious pride and "self" edification? Or is it indeed a gift that builds up the body? Is the gift used according to I Corinthians 14? Questions like these.