Misssionaries With God Complexes

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I can't for unspecified reasons

All righty then. I trust your judgment.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Cindy

All righty then. I trust your judgment.

:-)

[jfrog]

I'm a little confused. Why don't the Americans who claim Americans aren't giving enough give more and give until it hurts? I mean if they really believe they could be doing more then why aren't they doing more?

I don't mean to pick on you MissB. It is just your post exemplified what I seen in this thread. I have not read all of the thread though. I also want to note that when I say you, I'm not just referring just to MissB, I'm referring to anyone who believes we should be doing more.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Shame on you, Owl.

The truth is, that while Americans DO give huge amounts of money to charitable and mission-oriented causes, we do NOT give as much as we could. Nor do we suffer poverty the way that those in third world countries suffer poverty. When we "give till it hurts", truthfully we are not hurting, and we still have our needs (and our families' needs) met.

We don't give as much as we should? If you really believe that then maybe you will at least start giving as much as you should. Giving as much as we should begins with you giving as much as you should.

The TRUTH is, only those who have sacrificed everything for the sake of the kingdom will understand these sorts of posts. Missionaries definitely endure more hardship and SEE more hardship than your average American Christian. Therefore, I respect what missionaries have to say, assuming that they have more experience with these things than I do.

The TRUTH is, we give to missions and charities, but we most DEFINITELY could be giving more.

Then you start giving more!

The TRUTH is, we give our dollars, because sometimes that alleviates the guilt we feel for not actually DOING anything.

Then you go and actually do something!

The TRUTH is, if something that was posted bothers you that much, maybe it isn't the speaker's motives you should be analyzing.

The truth is that if what Owl posted bothers you so much then it isn't her motives you should be analyzing. In other word that's a two way street.

The TRUTH is, there's nothing productive in you coming here and maligning a very dear woman, simply because you felt a little guilt when you read her posts. Perhaps you should take that guilt and do something with it.

Or maybe since you totally agree that you aren't giving enough then maybe you should take that belief and put it into action. I say let those that believe they aren't doing enough be the first to do more.

The TRUTH is, if you get out and start making concerted efforts to evangelize and do outreach, you will be unpleasantly surprised at how FEW American Christians really want to get their hands dirty. (statistically speaking) They might be willing to donate money to your cause--just so they don't have to wash their hands later.

The truth is if you really really believe that then you should be the first in line to get your hands dirty.

You should be absolutely ashamed of this thread, Owl.

I have no problem with a missionary describing conditions over there and asking if I can give more or do more. I have a problem with a missionary telling me that if I don't give more then I am not doing enough.

I also have a problem with fellow Americans telling me I should give more to missions just because I can. I say that if they believe that then they should give more to missions just because they can.

I can see why Owl was offended by the missionaries post. It accused most every American of not loving Jesus because their actions in terms of giving to missions don't show it. It also said that the reason that the giving to missions doesn't show a love for Jesus was because we have a comparitive excess and could be doing more. I think Owl shouldn't be the only one offended by those words. Every American Christian who could be doing more should be offended for being accused of not loving Jesus. The fact is we all could be giving more and as long as we aren't giving all that we can then by the words of that missionary we don't love Jesus. I hope I've explained mine and Owl's problem with that statement.

By the way, Sis Alevear I forgive you and don't think you purposefully meant for your words to mean all of that.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I'm a little confused. Why don't the Americans who claim Americans aren't giving enough give more and give until it hurts? I mean if they really believe they could be doing more then why aren't they doing more?

I don't mean to pick on you MissB. It is just your post exemplified what I seen in this thread. I have not read all of the thread though. I also want to note that when I say you, I'm not just referring just to MissB, I'm referring to anyone who believes we should be doing more.

You really need to read the entire thread. Furthermore, I know where the original post came from, and that poster knows better.

I have no problem with a missionary describing conditions over there and asking if I can give more or do more. I have a problem with a missionary telling me that if I don't give more then I am not doing enough.

I also have a problem with fellow Americans telling me I should give more to missions just because I can. I say that if they believe that then they should give more to missions just because they can.

I can see why Owl was offended by the missionaries post. It accused most every American of not loving Jesus because their actions in terms of giving to missions don't show it. It also said that the reason that the giving to missions doesn't show a love for Jesus was because we have a comparitive excess and could be doing more. I think Owl shouldn't be the only one offended by those words. Every American Christian who could be doing more should be offended for being accused of not loving Jesus. The fact is we all could be giving more and as long as we aren't giving all that we can then by the words of that missionary we don't love Jesus. I hope I've explained mine and Owl's problem with that statement.

By the way, Sis Alevear I forgive you and don't think you purposefully meant for your words to mean all of that.

Sister Alvear didn't say anything that requires forgiveness.

jfrog, generally speaking, Americans are spoiled. We don't have nearly the hardship of other countries. Most Christians don't suffer for their religion in this country, but in other countries it can mean persecution, harassment, prison or even death. Even when we are scraping by, we still have more, generally speaking, than millions of other people all over the world. So, by that token, even when we "give till it hurts", we aren't truly hurting.

When my husband and I look over the budget to decide what we can give, we give us much as is comfortable. We give generously, but we aren't taking anything off the table for ourselves in order to do so. There HAVE been times when my husband was out of work or when his income was down when it was difficult to give tithes and offerings, but we did it anyway--and I'm convinced that God has blessed us for being faithful. Even in those times when our finances were tight, we never went without true necessities.

I'm informed enough to know that this is the case for MOST Americans. Ergo, I can speak for most of us when I say that while we are generous, it is true that we are STILL spoiled.

That's not to say that our blessings are a bad thing. We should be thankful and appreciate what we have and be good stewards of what God has given us. But I think we can take what a missionary has to say from another perspective and appreciate it for what it means--that some people are too caught up in their traditional lifestyle of plenty and comfort to think about the pain of others.

As for "getting my hands dirty"...I'm not going to make you a list, but suffice it to say that I've been on the side of ministry long enough to know that very few [statistically--man, I hate having to qualify every little statement] are willing to actually do what is needed. Most would PREFER to throw money at a problem because that's easy and it alleviates the guilt of laziness. That's a fact, and if it makes you uncomfortable, too bad. I grew up in a pastor's home and I've been in ministry my entire life, and I've seen how few people actually want to "work" for the kingdom of God. There's an old statistic that says 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and it holds true for the most part. You have people who work, and you have others who expect to be served. That's just the way it is. I don't resent it, but I would be an ostrich if I didn't acknowledge it. I've personally seen people refuse to go to certain areas of town, so they will offer money to an effort instead. That's not to say that we shouldn't give, because obviously we can't all go overseas and we can't all immerse ourselves in charity, so it makes sense to support those who can. However, it would be obtuse to ignore the fact that money makes it easy for spoiled Christians to keep their hands quite clean and shiny.

It would do us all good to remember that God destroyed Sodom because of their lack of charity, among other things:

Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

[rgcraig]

This scripture came to my mind - -

Good sense makes a man restrain his anger, and it is his glory to overlook a transgression or an offense. (Proverbs 19:11, AMP)

[Sister Alvear]

What I said is written in hundreds of books however no one meant one certain person...
Once I was walking into a huge church and the pastor's grandson (little boy) walked up and said my grandpa doesn't believe in missionaries.... And only because they knew me did they give me any kind of offering at all...They according to church members had thousands (many thousands) in the bank idle...It is churches like that that most people refer to...churches that could help even in the homeland but do not...

I understand people get burnt out by both home and foreign missionaries that are not up to par however there are real people all over the world that deserve our (my) help. That is why our Brazilian churches helps national missionaries, helps in Paraguay, has built a church in the Philippines, helped a couple works in the Philippines and a few other outreaches.
That is why Brother Alvear and I have traveled to Portugal, Azores and helped many years in a national work in the Philippines and at the moment helping start another work in the Philippines.
We are NOT supported by the UPCI but have nothing bad to say about them. Their work in Brazil is awesome.
We have lived by faith for 42 years. I have always written telling the needs of Brazil and other places of the world. Brazil is my calling but not my only passion. I have been asked by friends (home mission independent) pastors on several occasions for help and made trips on my credit card to preach and spend time helping, praying and whatever I was asked to do and the same goes for Brother Alvear. He too has spent time helping several Spanish speaking churches.

My husband comes from a long line of preachers. So gospel work is all he has ever known. I rejoice he speaks Spanish and is able to help in the Spanish-speaking world. He just got back from preaching in Chile and at this moment he is in south Brazil preaching and flies in tonight for our son's wedding tomorrow.

Do I know about going without? Yes beloved I do...Was it a sacrifice? Not really in comparison to what many suffer...mine have been light afflictions...

I traveled with Richard and Sabrina Wurmbrand...I have no scars, no years in communist prisons, no years and years underground separated from friends and family, I have never taken communion in an empty cup or broke an invisible piece of bread in remembrance of His suffering...

I just spent the night in a little convent in the middle of the jungle encamped around by Xavante Indians...I sat and listened to little Italian families tell me the horrors of living between two fierce Indians tribes that are always at war and neither cared a hoot that they were there telling them what they know about Christ...I wept all night long because I judged myself superior in knowledge to the Roman Catholics but they were there doing what we are supposed to do...
Do I take their sacrifice lightly just because they do not have truth? No, a thousand times no. In fact it haunts me...

Do I take sacrifice of home missionaries lightly? No, I have emptied my pockets in their churches...

Why don't you call Dr. John Scheels and ask him who went and preached revivals for him in a little storefront long before God blessed him with a beautiful home and church he will tell you.... He told the story at his conference this year...when I was the speaker at a beautiful church.... almost breath taking but it was not always that way.... His wife was my best friend in school and continues to be such a friend. I know very close the sacrifices made by our precious indescribable homeland friends.

I often call and write many of them. However I do agree many in the homeland mostly forget them but it is not my fault that they often go unnoticed. God does record every sacrifice we made and I am sure on that day their rewards will be so great and inn light of the reward even their sufferings on that day will seem so small.

I deeply honor churches that help missions. I go to churches that do NOT support me and encourage them to continue supporting the precious missionaries they support. There is no use in pulling support from one to help another one.

Well, I have a lot to say…but don’t have time…. have done a lot today and have a lot more things to do….

Blessings to all and once again if you are offended at me I ask your forgiveness….

[Owl]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You really need to read the entire thread. Furthermore, I know where the original post came from, and that poster knows better.



Sister Alvear didn't say anything that requires forgiveness.

jfrog, generally speaking, Americans are spoiled. We don't have nearly the hardship of other countries. Most Christians don't suffer for their religion in this country, but in other countries it can mean persecution, harassment, prison or even death. Even when we are scraping by, we still have more, generally speaking, than millions of other people all over the world. So, by that token, even when we "give till it hurts", we aren't truly hurting.

When my husband and I look over the budget to decide what we can give, we give us much as is comfortable. We give generously, but we aren't taking anything off the table for ourselves in order to do so. There HAVE been times when my husband was out of work or when his income was down when it was difficult to give tithes and offerings, but we did it anyway--and I'm convinced that God has blessed us for being faithful. Even in those times when our finances were tight, we never went without true necessities.

I'm informed enough to know that this is the case for MOST Americans. Ergo, I can speak for most of us when I say that while we are generous, it is true that we are STILL spoiled.

That's not to say that our blessings are a bad thing. We should be thankful and appreciate what we have and be good stewards of what God has given us. But I think we can take what a missionary has to say from another perspective and appreciate it for what it means--that some people are too caught up in their traditional lifestyle of plenty and comfort to think about the pain of others.

As for "getting my hands dirty"...I'm not going to make you a list, but suffice it to say that I've been on the side of ministry long enough to know that very few [statistically--man, I hate having to qualify every little statement] are willing to actually do what is needed. Most would PREFER to throw money at a problem because that's easy and it alleviates the guilt of laziness. That's a fact, and if it makes you uncomfortable, too bad. I grew up in a pastor's home and I've been in ministry my entire life, and I've seen how few people actually want to "work" for the kingdom of God. There's an old statistic that says 20% of the people do 80% of the work, and it holds true for the most part. You have people who work, and you have others who expect to be served. That's just the way it is. I don't resent it, but I would be an ostrich if I didn't acknowledge it. I've personally seen people refuse to go to certain areas of town, so they will offer money to an effort instead. That's not to say that we shouldn't give, because obviously we can't all go overseas and we can't all immerse ourselves in charity, so it makes sense to support those who can. However, it would be obtuse to ignore the fact that money makes it easy for spoiled Christians to keep their hands quite clean and shiny.

It would do us all good to remember that God destroyed Sodom because of their lack of charity, among other things:

Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.

The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.

If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.

It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.

Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.

Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Owl

Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.

The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.

If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.

It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.

Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.

Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.

I go AND spend for missions, as much and as often as I can. There is no greater honor. Your attack on Sis. Alvear was uncalled for; you obviously don't know them personally.

[Owl]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I go AND spend for missions, as much and as often as I can. There is no greater honor. Your attack on Sis. Alvear was uncalled for; you obviously don't know them personally.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I did not attack her, I took issue with her very, very insulting comments. Your commitment to missions is admirable.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Owl

Miss B, your post cracks me up. You join the hallelujah chorus railing against American giving, and describe us as spoiled and lazy, yet you choose to only give what is comfortable. That is not sacrifice.

The TRUTH is, thousands of American ministers give far and above what is comfortable. They don't give out of abundance, they give even though it DOES take food off of their table. They give and give and give.

If you can't see that the missionaries, and the work they do, are funded much better than American pastors and home missionaries you're blind.

It's one thing to complain about the poverty of foreigners. No one will disagree there is a great disparity between America and third world nations. It's another to say we should provide welfare to people who won't change their own governmental policies to become economically prosperous.

Every Christian should feel compelled to give to missions because of a burden for souls. Missions work, however, does not exist to end poverty and correct social injustices.

Lastly, some of the folks who have been the most aghast on this thread probably never involve themselves in any spiritual outreach work. They throw a bit of extra money at missions and think they have fulfilled the Great Commission. That Commission is to "go," NOT spend.

Really?