What's the difference?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by n david

I logged in this morning and thought about deleting AFF. May instead just start using the ignore feature.

It's one thing to debate an issue. It's something else to have post after post promoting drinking alcohol or using marijuana.

And then there's the incessant whining about beards and bashing of ministers, pastor and churches.

Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm in an apostolic forum or some secular forum.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Wouldn't that indicate that fermented drink isn't a "sin" in and of itself?

I firmly believe that a life of drunkenness is a sin. Those who are guilty of this sin are described in Scripture:

Isaiah 5:11
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. Christ's first miracle was at a wedding. A celebration. There was joy, laughter, dancing, rejoicing. And when the host ran out of wine, Jesus turned 120-180 gallons of water into the finest wine... just to keep the party going. There is no sin in such a celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions.

The ancients understood that wine was eternal life, because after and only after fermentation did she last forever. Hence the reason was wine used so much to show eternal life, or Jesus' eternal blood. The passover cup or communion couldn't be taken with unfermented grape juice, or crushed grapes into a cup. It would not symbolize the eternal blood of Christ.

Originally Posted by Aquila

However, woe unto those who wake up early in the morning just to seek strong drink, and continuing drinking until evening, until wine inflame them. I know a man named John. He wakes up, has coffee, and then... he cracks open a beer. He'll drink all day long. He's clearly an alcoholic. He is abusive, isn't employed, and just a real lost soul. This is the sin the Bible is describing.

Sorry, but beer can't be included in this discussion because it isn't relevant to what we are discussing. Beer would be under strong drink. But wine is something different. To be a winebibber is to be gluttonous over indulging. Jesus was excused of this because He was fasting around the religious of His time. He was eating and drinking. There is no sin for drinking fermented grape. Mixed, or strong drinks are yet another story.

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, I don't see a "biblical" prohibition on drinking alcohol.

Because there isn't any.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I do understand that back in the days of the Temperance Movement and Prohibition, the social climate was such that many churches preached against drinking alcohol, even in moderation.

Because of the damage it had done during that time. Temperance movement wasn't against alcohol per se, but against its effects. It was better to get rid of the stuff all together then have people learn to use it properly.

Originally Posted by Aquila

This was due to the widespread alcoholism in that society. I don't disagree with the pastors of that day teaching that Christians should abstain from alcohol. But what I do disagree with is the notion that the position is one drawn from Scripture, when it clearly isn't. I think pastors should be honest about these kinds of things. It's one thing for a pastor to explain to the congregation that due to some widespread circumstance, the church is going to choose to abstain for the sake of a clear Christian witness and to set an example for the society in question. Just be honest about it.

My church family knows the truth concerning alcohol, and they abstain because it doesn't look good. That is just good old social logic. Just like good Spock is clean shaven and evil spock has a beard.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

I logged in this morning and thought about deleting AFF. May instead just start using the ignore feature.

It's one thing to debate an issue. It's something else to have post after post promoting drinking alcohol or using marijuana.

And then there's the incessant whining about beards and bashing of ministers, pastor and churches.

Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm in an apostolic forum or some secular forum.

You would leave me here alone?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I logged in this morning and thought about deleting AFF.

There will always be differing opinions. Don't let it get to you. Release the idea that people have to agree, and just roll with the discussion.

It's one thing to debate an issue. It's something else to have post after post promoting drinking alcohol

Who promoted drinking alcohol? All I've done is explain how the Scriptures speak of moderation and condemn drunkenness.

or using marijuana.

Medically, yes. Recreationally, no. Those who have children with epilepsy who have benefitted from medical cannabis will clearly understand what has been advocated.

And then there's the incessant whining about beards and bashing of ministers, pastor and churches.

I've only seen the desire to confront those traditions of men in our midst that are being taught as doctrine.

Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm in an apostolic forum or some secular forum.

Apostolic... meaning, like the Apostles. Did the Apostles condemn all alcohol, beards, and decry medical advancement as it relates to more natural medications? No. Perhaps the problem is that the forum is becoming more "Apostolic" than the mold fashioned in the mid 1900's will allow.

[Aquila]

It appears that it is the Bible that keeps raising questions regarding the "Apostolic" traditions of the mid 1900's.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There will always be differing opinions. Don't let it get to you. Release the idea that people have to agree, and just roll with the discussion.

First, this is a forum for apostolics. This isn't a secular forum. So no, I'm not going to just roll with the discussion.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Who promoted drinking alcohol? All I've done is explain how the Scriptures speak of moderation and condemn drunkenness.

It's not only you, but you have promoted drinking alcohol.

"""Personally, I enjoy opening a bottle of wine on the holidays, especially when I'm cooking. I'll pour a glass for myself, Christina, and/or any guests who wish to have one. As I cook, I'll sip the wine. It makes the experience enjoyable, people relax, laugh, and are filled with joy."""

"""At the end of the day, having an alcoholic beverage in and of itself isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine while cooking dinner isn't a "sin". Having a glass of Champaign on New Year's Eve isn't a "sin". Having a cold beer over grilled hamburgers and hotdogs on the 4th of July isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine with the lights turned down low after a romantic dinner with one's spouse isn't a "sin"."""

"""The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions."""

These posts and others actively show your support and advocating of drinking wine, beer and alcohol.

Then there's the ginger on a binger:
"""I have an occasional drink, usually very high quality stuff, that is a treat."""

"""Going for a nice shepards pie, cheesecake, and 2 fingers of really nice single malt scotch, is called having dinner."""

Originally Posted by Aquila

Medically, yes. Recreationally, no. Those who have children with epilepsy who have benefitted from medical cannabis will clearly understand what has been advocated.

Sure. Because CBD and MM are the wonder cures!

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've only seen the desire to confront those traditions of men in our midst that are being taught as doctrine.

It's a bit more than that. From describing Pastors as Sith Lords to your rants about plastic saints and fake preachers. No part of a Pastor, ministry, church or service goes unscathed.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Apostolic... meaning, like the Apostles. Did the Apostles condemn all alcohol, beards, and decry medical advancement as it relates to more natural medications? No. Perhaps the problem is that the forum is becoming more "Apostolic" than the mold fashioned in the mid 1900's will allow.

Oh good grief. Talk about lunacy.

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by n david

First, this is a forum for apostolics. This isn't a secular forum. So no, I'm not going to just roll with the discussion.




It's not only you, but you have promoted drinking alcohol.

"""Personally, I enjoy opening a bottle of wine on the holidays, especially when I'm cooking. I'll pour a glass for myself, Christina, and/or any guests who wish to have one. As I cook, I'll sip the wine. It makes the experience enjoyable, people relax, laugh, and are filled with joy."""

"""At the end of the day, having an alcoholic beverage in and of itself isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine while cooking dinner isn't a "sin". Having a glass of Champaign on New Year's Eve isn't a "sin". Having a cold beer over grilled hamburgers and hotdogs on the 4th of July isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine with the lights turned down low after a romantic dinner with one's spouse isn't a "sin"."""

"""The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions."""

These posts and others actively show your support and advocating of drinking wine, beer and alcohol.

Then there's the ginger on a binger:
"""I have an occasional drink, usually very high quality stuff, that is a treat."""

"""Going for a nice shepards pie, cheesecake, and 2 fingers of really nice single malt scotch, is called having dinner."""


Sure. Because CBD and MM are the wonder cures!


It's a bit more than that. From describing Pastors as Sith Lords to your rants about plastic saints and fake preachers. No part of a Pastor, ministry, church or service goes unscathed.


Oh good grief. Talk about lunacy.

NDavid, I would like to know as an apostolic how do you describe the difference between having a glass of wine and being a drunkard? Also in your mind where is the sin in CBD?

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by n david

First, this is a forum for apostolics. This isn't a secular forum. So no, I'm not going to just roll with the discussion.




It's not only you, but you have promoted drinking alcohol.

"""Personally, I enjoy opening a bottle of wine on the holidays, especially when I'm cooking. I'll pour a glass for myself, Christina, and/or any guests who wish to have one. As I cook, I'll sip the wine. It makes the experience enjoyable, people relax, laugh, and are filled with joy."""

"""At the end of the day, having an alcoholic beverage in and of itself isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine while cooking dinner isn't a "sin". Having a glass of Champaign on New Year's Eve isn't a "sin". Having a cold beer over grilled hamburgers and hotdogs on the 4th of July isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine with the lights turned down low after a romantic dinner with one's spouse isn't a "sin"."""

"""The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions."""

These posts and others actively show your support and advocating of drinking wine, beer and alcohol.

Then there's the ginger on a binger:
"""I have an occasional drink, usually very high quality stuff, that is a treat."""

"""Going for a nice shepards pie, cheesecake, and 2 fingers of really nice single malt scotch, is called having dinner."""


Sure. Because CBD and MM are the wonder cures!


It's a bit more than that. From describing Pastors as Sith Lords to your rants about plastic saints and fake preachers. No part of a Pastor, ministry, church or service goes unscathed.


Oh good grief. Talk about lunacy.

Do you consider a person that attends a UPCI church, has followed Acts 2:38, and has /is increasing the kingdom, witnessed miricles, and spoken in tounges Apastolic?

There are many I have met that fit the above criteria, but do not fall into the old standards -

Moderate or celebratory minimal alcohol consumtion is wrong.

Trimming a ladies ling hair is wrong (current thread)

Having a beard is wrong - (many threads with lots of pages)

Wearing short sleeves is wrong

Hose are/are not permitted on ladies-(debated on a current thread)

Drums should not be used in worship

Electric guitars can not be used in worship

All worship music should be steady no faster than march cadence and in the key of C only

The earth is flat

All of the above I have heard or read from UPC preachers over the years. Most have shown up over the years on this forum. All defended by adherants to this doctrine. All subject to interpretation and debate using scripture. A gander through old threads here will prove that this has existed long before I got here. And many a good Apastolic will be found on either side.

So I will stand by the qoutes you used of mine. And many others too would do the same, all of whom are going to an Apastolic church on Sunday.. Aquila's quotes are his - some I agree with others not. But please dont lump us together in quotes to berate us on not living up to your vision.

Ginger with a binger- really?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

First, this is a forum for apostolics. This isn't a secular forum. So no, I'm not going to just roll with the discussion.

It's not only you, but you have promoted drinking alcohol.

"""Personally, I enjoy opening a bottle of wine on the holidays, especially when I'm cooking. I'll pour a glass for myself, Christina, and/or any guests who wish to have one. As I cook, I'll sip the wine. It makes the experience enjoyable, people relax, laugh, and are filled with joy."""

"""At the end of the day, having an alcoholic beverage in and of itself isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine while cooking dinner isn't a "sin". Having a glass of Champaign on New Year's Eve isn't a "sin". Having a cold beer over grilled hamburgers and hotdogs on the 4th of July isn't a "sin". Having a glass of wine with the lights turned down low after a romantic dinner with one's spouse isn't a "sin"."""

"""The blessing of wine and alcoholic beverages is witnessed in Scripture as a part of celebration. There is no sin in imbibing on celebratory occasions."""

These posts and others actively show your support and advocating of drinking wine, beer and alcohol.

Then there's the ginger on a binger:
"""I have an occasional drink, usually very high quality stuff, that is a treat."""

"""Going for a nice shepards pie, cheesecake, and 2 fingers of really nice single malt scotch, is called having dinner."""

I was only giving an example of what moderation is about in comparison to what the B-I-B-L-E describes as drunkenness. If someone doesn't wish to drink, I have no problem with that. In fact, I don't remember the last time I had anything alcoholic to drink. I assure you, I'm not sitting around sipping Schnapps all day.

I think you're stressing yourself out over something that isn't even being said.

Sure. Because CBD and MM are the wonder cures!

No. No one said that CBD and MM are "wonder cures". However, the truth, you know, the reality, the irrefutable facts... is that MM has helped many people with many different conditions. People who tried prescription drugs and they didn't help a bit. If a child is having 17 seizures a day, and the child has even stopped breathing on occasion, who would deny the child something that has been able to prevent seizures in so many other children? If a man has Parkinson's and can barely talk, walk across his home, and make a sandwich for himself, but MM minimizes the tremors, allowing him to speak, walk, and even make his own lunch, who would deny it to him? It's safer than the prescription meds, even with side effects factored in.

Look, a certain someone painted me bad. He painted a picture of me sitting around smoking joints admonishing everyone to toke up. Brother, please understand, that was a brazen mischaracterization of me, my intent, and what I'm saying. If you drop that mischaracterization, and rationally see what I'm saying, I trust that you'll not think on this strange track that you're thinking now. Why would I sit around smoking dope? Why would I be on an Apostolic forum advocating such? It's illogical. If I were doing that, this is the last place I'd waste my time in. The truth is, you're only seeing the illusion of me that someone else has created in your head. Read the words I've typed. If someone purposefully misconstrues what is being clear said, make note, and perhaps confront the person for the mischaracterization. I sense that you're stressing over something here that isn't even a reality. Don't pay emotional capital on illusions.

It's a bit more than that. From describing Pastors as Sith Lords to your rants about plastic saints and fake preachers. No part of a Pastor, ministry, church or service goes unscathed.

I know wonderful pastors. And yes, they wear suits. And yes, they are part of various organizations. They are good godly men. And I do mention them. But people tend to ignore the statements I make about them. For example, I've mentioned a pastor who has admitted that he believes being shaven is a reflection of a clean image in our society, and so he admonishes men to shave. However... he doesn't argue that it is a "sin" not to either. He's truthful. He expresses that it is only his opinion. He's a good and honest man. And there are many men like them. When I talk about pastors being "Sith Lords", "Borg drones", and "plastic saints", or being "fakes"... I'm talking about those who have truly earned those labels. Men who teach traditions of men as doctrine, men who are loyal to human organization to the disunity of the wider body, men who refuse to own their opinions and hide behind the false premise that the Bible supports their legalistic edicts, extortion, or buffoonery. Men who are truly... false teachers. The Bible mentions false prophets, false teachers, idol shepherds, etc. too. There are good men of God that I know. I am not talking about them. And if you know good men of God, I'm not talking about them either. I'm talking about those who, as I explained, earned the label. Now, I do apologize if someone you look up too has earned that label and you feel my words scathe them. But let me ask you, is that my fault? I don't even know them. I'm only pointing out something that I see in Scripture and have seen in those false teachers that I've encountered. If this frustrates you, don't attack me. Evaluate if that pastor is truly earning such a label. If so, again, that isn't my fault. That man owns it.

Oh good grief. Talk about lunacy.

It's looney to point out that the definition of "Apostolic" is largely based on the forms and fashions of the mid 1900's? That isn't lunacy, that's just true.

My point is... what is "Apostolic" is defined by Scripture... not the forms and fashions of the mid 1900's.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

All worship music should be steady no faster than march cadence and in the key of C only

The earth is flat

All of the above I have heard or read from UPC preachers over the years.

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Ginger with a binger- really?

On. On a binger. Obviously hyperbole since the occasional, two finger scotch isn't binging.