Deltaguitar-Salvation Requires More Than Faith!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by pelathais

There's a fundamental paradox at work. It's like trying to see both sides of a coin, in detail, at the same time. The more you focus your attention on one side of the coin, the less you can see of the other, until very quickly the other side is lost to your view entirely.

The only way to see and appreciate both sides of the coin is to study each side in detail and in turn. Sometimes when you're preaching this, you will need to really drill down on "grace" or perhaps your audience needs the "obedience" side. Either way, to be balanced you really need to emphasize each point of view in turn - and emphatically!

Don't back off on grace just to show "the brethren" that you're still a tough guy preacher. And don't ignore "obedience" just to mollify the folks at Charisma Magazine.

Paradox? Let's see, one side of the coin says "For many are called, but few are chosen," "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," and many mentions of "the elect". It's God's choice who is saved. The other side of this paradoxical coin talks about whosoever will, and all ye who labor, etc. It's our choice.

One way to resolve conflicts like this is to paint (interpret) one side to look more like the other. It's our choice, but only if God chooses us to choose! Or, God chooses everyone, but it's up to us to choose to be, uh, chosen! Or some such.

Another way to deal with it is to call it a contradiction. But, that's not allowed, so forget it! There are no contradictions in the Bible. Only apparent contradictions. And God put apparent contradictions in His Word, just so we would have to exercise faith to believe that it is God's Word. Or something like that.

[Timmy]

Oh, there's another way to resolve the "paradox". Flip that coin and see where it lands!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think you've got something mixed up here, Bro. "They" ("so-called Calvinists") do believe in predestination and they do believe that GOD and not man makes the choice of who believes. This is the Doctrine of Election.

Personally, I find Calvinism to be incomplete here. Both views are correct, IMHO.


Instead of looking at the ideas as opposing viewpoints, one on one side of a line on a piece of paper and the the other on the other side of the line; how about trying to put the ideas into three dimensional space?

Instead of a black and white world with a shade of gray representing "flirting" with an idea; how about looking at all the colors of the spectrum?

The idea of predestination is argued quite strongly and emphatically by Paul. Yet even Paul sought to persuade people to do something with the Gospel. I see both views as being correct - simultaneously. It's a fundamental paradox. We are dealing with the mind of God, here.

Will the Almighty be surprised at who makes it into heaven? You remember the old yarn? The people who you thought were going to make it won't and those you didn't think would make it do? Will God be among the surprised? Of course not. He already knows about the victory and the overcoming stregnth that you and I have only begun to tap into.

That's one the the cool things I find in the so-called "Calvinist" view, though it's much older than Calvin and goes back to Augustine and before him, Paul. God has confidence in my victories. That means I will be victorious. Of course, to actually achieve that victory I still have to actually do something.

But with the fear of ultimate failure gone, I feel a great deal more confident when I do those things that I ought.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

These two verses fit in with what you are saying.

It sounds like you're a little more balanced now. Too bad he felt the need to "interupt" your preaching.

Sadly, in my own church my pastor and others would sometimes interrupt my preaching to "provide balance." I was preaching, "It's All in Him..." and not just "the fullness of the Godhead," all our hope, all our dreams and all of our salvation. It's all in Him!

Prov 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?


The Almighty judge of the whole world knows the final destination of every soul. He knew it before He created the world.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Paradox? Let's see, one side of the coin says "For many are called, but few are chosen," "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," and many mentions of "the elect". It's God's choice who is saved. The other side of this paradoxical coin talks about whosoever will, and all ye who labor, etc. It's our choice.

One way to resolve conflicts like this is to paint (interpret) one side to look more like the other. It's our choice, but only if God chooses us to choose! Or, God chooses everyone, but it's up to us to choose to be, uh, chosen! Or some such.

Another way to deal with it is to call it a contradiction. But, that's not allowed, so forget it! There are no contradictions in the Bible. Only apparent contradictions. And God put apparent contradictions in His Word, just so we would have to exercise faith to believe that it is God's Word. Or something like that.

Matter (or mass) is inversly proportional to energy as it moves away from the speed of light. We can simplify that by saying, "E=MC2" or simplify further by saying that energy and mass are the same thing, just in different conditions. In other words, given the right conditions E=M.

That much we know and it has been firmly established by both observational and experimental data. So then we should be able to understand the mass of a photon, right? Wrong.

We live with many fundamental paradoxes in our world.

Medieval savants believed that the angels held the planets in their orbits. How does this medieval view differ from our modern view of gravity? Physicist Richard Feynman used to burst out laughing when trying to explain that question to his students. It was one of his favorite one-liners- and he got a Nobel Prize for physics.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

*The "Half Shekel" teaching says that you can buy your salvation and even healing in your body if you gave "a tithe plus five!" or 15% of your income to the church. It was growing in popularity in the UPC at the time. Dan Seagraves wrote an excellent article in the Forward to try and warn our ministers against this false teaching, but hey - an extra 5% looks pretty good when you're saving up for a horse farm or Florida condo.

Because of the way we approach people with the "YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED... YOU HAVE TO SPEAK IN TONGUES" and we so often leave out the "JESUS MADE A WAY FOR US ALL!" many people in our society have looked upon us as offering a "works based" version of salvation rather than a "faith based" one.

Because of the way we tell our people in our churches "YOU HAVE TO TITHE...YOU HAVE TO PRAY IN THE PRAYER ROOM...YOU! OVER THERE! TAKE A LAP!" most of our people have also adopted a "works based" view of living for God.

Okay, Pel, I can see where you're coming from but not every UPC preacher is like this. I'm glad you see that there is another half to the UPC.

Would you appreciate someone who said...You WILL speak in tongues when you receive the Holy Spirit and one of the purposes of baptism is to remit sins? Would that be more palatible to you than "YOU HAVE TO"?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

My point is that everyone seems to be wanting to do away with obedience in their zeal to prove salvation is by God alone.

Yet when they are presented with the full revelation of the doctrine of grace that God choses his elect before the foundation of the world not according to what we are doing but according to his own purposes THEN it is they who turn back and think THEY had a free will choice in their salvation.

God takes the credit for who comes to him. Yes from our view point it seems we have chosen him. Yet if we are ever able to receive it we chose him because we were ordained to do so.

So sure enough if anyone actually gets saved it was Gods work.

I see it a little differently. Because of God's foreknowledge, He knew from before the world began who would choose to walk in His ways. He knows the end from the beginning. The entirety of history was known of God before it could be called "history". So we do have a free choice to live according to God's original design and intent. He foresaw our choices. After seeing the end, God called, predestined, justified, and glorified.

Did God step into future history and cause some redirection? I think so, but nothing that would ultimately restrict our freedom to choose.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

It sounds like you're a little more balanced now. Too bad he felt the need to "interupt" your preaching.

Maybe someone with greater wisdom than I possess will be able to help me, but it seems to me that to achieve "balance" and to give both sides of the scale their due, you must go full throttle on each theme.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Okay, Pel, I can see where you're coming from but not every UPC preacher is like this. I'm glad you see that there is another half to the UPC.

Would you appreciate someone who said...You WILL speak in tongues when you receive the Holy Spirit and one of the purposes of baptism is to remit sins? Would that be more palatible to you than "YOU HAVE TO"?

I don't know that I am convinced any longer that every believer will speak in tongues.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Maybe someone with greater wisdom than I possess will be able to help me, but it seems to me that to achieve "balance" and to give both sides of the scale their due, you must go full throttle on each theme.

I think there is a balance.

Here's another paradoxical verse:

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Paul worked.

God gave grace to work.

The balance is a mutuality of purpose. Can't leave off the responsibility of man to the expense of the grace of God and visa versa.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Okay, Pel, I can see where you're coming from but not every UPC preacher is like this. I'm glad you see that there is another half to the UPC.

That's what may trigger most of my angry rants. I don't like to see that "other half" being treated as they are. I never have. You can walk all over me, but someone has to speak up sometimes...