Obey Them that Rule??? - Page 12

ManOfWord · #**111** 04-05-2007, 01:03 PM

OK, here's my take on submission and authority. There are MANY behind pulpits who believe they are "potentates" and rulers. They believe it is their responsibility and right to "rule" over people's lives in varying degrees. They are very good at wielding a sword. However, those "rulers" are always having difficulty getting people to submit to their "rulership." So they swing their sword harder and harder and threaten more and more. Those type of leaders NEVER have people wholeheartedly and willingly submitted to their lead.

On the other hand, there are leaders who do NOT believe it is their goal to get people to submit to them. These leaders are true shepherds and know that the enemy is the one who would destroy the sheep. The enemy is the ONLY one the true shepherd will use his sword on. The true shepherd will lay down his life for the sheep he protects. He will serve them and lead them into good pastures and lovingly correct them and lead them into the best grazing grounds. This type of leader has very little difficulty in getting people to follow his lead and submit to the direction he feels they should go.

One leader is good with the sword and the other is good with the towel. People will follow a leader who is willing to die with them as he leads them to battle. People will be very reluctant to follow a leader who shouts orders from the back of the crowd.

For a great read, get "The Way of the Shepherd" by Dr. Kevin Leman & William Pentak. It is very good reading. I have a young man in our church who moved to Toledo and works at a large hospital there. He read this little book and gave it to his supervisor to read as well. The supervisor made it mandatory reading for all of the staff. It's only about 100 pages long. EVERY pastor should read it and practice its principles.

MissBrattified · #**112** 04-05-2007, 01:07 PM

MOW,

You're stating the pastor's responsibilities quite well, in reference to handling power and authority carefully.

How would you state the responsibilities of saints to submit to their elders? Or your own responsibility as such?

Michlow · #**113** 04-05-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pianoman

I have a hard time posting on this thread, because I have to click "submit" first!

LOL, and me the big Rebel here, didn't even notice! See I CAN submit

Rhoni · #**114** 04-05-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felicity

Desiring the will of God and wanting to please Him will never lead you wrong and it doesn't hurt us necessarily to subject ourselves to those who are in authority and to teachings and demands that we may not personally feel are salvational or even necessarily biblical. This has been my experience anyhow.

We need a submissive attitude and spirit. Not blind submission and obedience though and here is where pastors and spiritual leaders have huge responsibility, to not be placing yokes and demands on people that are unnecessary. But then again, lines have to be drawn at some point and no matter where you draw the line ..... no matter how high or how low the "standard" is set there are going to be people who will balk and complain and resist.

No pastor is perfect. No church is perfect. There's always going to be someone expecting something that we may not feel is necessary to submit to. No matter where you go or which pastor is your spiritual leader this is going to be the case. So then we have a choice. Submit or not. Yield or not.

Ourselves, we have allowed people to decide for themselves what they will or won't be in compliance with .... and as long as they're not causing problem in the church but are happy to come, be part of the church, and overall happy with the leadership and feel as if they're being fed spiritually and ministered to we're happy with them being there and don't make them feel as if they don't belong or as if they aren't cared for or loved. We do our best in that regard.

Regardless though, there are always going to complainers, tongue waggers and naysayers. They'll always be part of the church.

I agree with this post!

Blessings, Rhoni

ManOfWord · #**115** 04-05-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

MOW,

You're stating the pastor's responsibilities quite well, in reference to handling power and authority carefully.

How would you state the responsibilities of saints to submit to their elders? Or your own responsibility as such?

My thinking has completely changed on this subject. I used to spend my time figuring out how to get people to "line up." I used to spend my time teaching submission to authority. (mine, and then God's

) I now spend the majority of my time figuring out how to serve. People are catching on to this "serving" thing and are beginning to do much more of it themselves.

I am amazed at how people are willing to "submit" or follow when you're not trying to get them to! I also willingly submit to the leaders/ministers on our staff. They clearly recognize me as their leader/pastor and I recognize them as my accountability. They NEVER try to tell me what to preach or teach or how to lead. However, we all speak freely in leadership meetings. I have never had one single argument break out in our meetings and we have dealt with some difficult subjects from time to time.

Michlow · #**116** 04-05-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd

I am a bit late having had work and such....

but i belive the key word is "submit" thus, you need to find someone you can place confidence in.

this notion that the current church model is the problem, seems to me to be an excuse for not submitting to another human being. I dont understand that.

Come 'on Ferd, you should know me a little better than that. I don't need an excuse for not submitting to another human being. I am the type to just say out loud, "Hey, I refuse to submit to another human being because none of them can be trusted"

Goodness, I struggle with being able to TRUST God after all the junk he has done to me. And He's GOD!!! Perfect, Love, Sovereign, etc.

How can I trust a mere man? I guess it was over on the church attendance thread that I got into that. I have fully admitted that fact. It is definately part of it. But what this thread is dealing with is "Why", Why SHOULD I trust any human spiritually?

ManOfWord · #**117** 04-05-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michlow

Why SHOULD I trust any human spiritually?

Because they have proven to you that they can be trusted. Because they have invested into your life and because they don't demand to be trusted.

MissBrattified · #**118** 04-05-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

My thinking has completely changed on this subject. I used to spend my time figuring out how to get people to "line up." I used to spend my time teaching submission to authority. (mine, and then God's

) I now spend the majority of my time figuring out how to serve. People are catching on to this "serving" thing and are beginning to do much more of it themselves.

I am amazed at how people are willing to "submit" or follow when you're not trying to get them to! I also willingly submit to the leaders/ministers on our staff. They clearly recognize me as their leader/pastor and I recognize them as my accountability. They NEVER try to tell me what to preach or teach or how to lead. However, we all speak freely in leadership meetings. I have never had one single argument break out in our meetings and we have dealt with some difficult subjects from time to time.

Again, I didn't say anything at all about making people submit. My pastor certainly doesn't "make" us submit....we choose to submit to him. And we love him very much--he's a great leader!!! (And servant.)

I asked what you feel the saint's responsibilities are, according to the topic at hand. Or do you feel they have no responsibility? If you were a saint attending a church, instead of pastoring one, what would you feel obligated to do, in reference to obeying God's Word on this issue? And what would be a "deal-breaker"?

I've been under good leadership (as we are now), and I've been under really, really BAD leadership in the past. I know the difference, and that really isn't the topic of this thread, although of course its related.

Michlow · #**119** 04-05-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Because they have proven to you that they can be trusted. Because they have invested into your life and because they don't demand to be trusted.

Well I have yet to meet a person who fufills those qualifications.

MissBrattified · #**120** 04-05-2007, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michlow

Come 'on Ferd, you should know me a little better than that. I don't need an excuse for not submitting to another human being. I am the type to just say out loud, "Hey, I refuse to submit to another human being because none of them can be trusted"

Goodness, I struggle with being able to TRUST God after all the junk he has done to me. And He's GOD!!! Perfect, Love, Sovereign, etc.

Huh?