Can a oneness believer make it to Heaven...

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Rico

I speak English, not Greek. Not that it would matter, because there is too much other evidence to prove the plan of salvation is much more than just believing. Take Mark16:16 for example.

If a person really believes then there are things they will do, i gotcha there.

I doubt if any of the previous preachers I mentioned preached that salvation begins and ends at the point of initial faith.

What I'm talking about is baptism in the name of Jesus vs baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Non Apostolics usually don't baptize saying the name of Jesus Christ. Many don't seek after the promised gift of the Holy Ghost upon the confession of their faith or after they are baptized. Sadly, they never experience what we experience. Then, by virtue of what our doctrine states, these same precious believers are doomed to hell.

Doesn't anyone else see that our doctrine leads us to a very exclusionary view of salvation? No one else is saved, according to our doctrine, except the Apostolics, and even then, only some of them, depending on a whole variety of other stuff.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by 1399

If a person really believes then there are things they will do, i gotcha there.

I doubt if any of the previous preachers I mentioned preached that salvation begins and ends at the point of initial faith.

What I'm talking about is baptism in the name of Jesus vs baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Non Apostolics usually don't baptize saying the name of Jesus Christ. Many don't seek after the promised gift of the Holy Ghost upon the confession of their faith or after they are baptized. Sadly, they never experience what we experience. Then, by virtue of what our doctrine states, these same precious believers are doomed to hell.

Doesn't anyone else see that our doctrine leads us to a very exclusionary view of salvation? No one else is saved, according to our doctrine, except the Apostolics, and even then, only some of them, depending on a whole variety of other stuff.

We preach the plan of Salvation as preached by Peter in Acts 2:38.
God does the judging.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by 1399

God's word means more than my thoughts. But how I think affects how I see the word of God. So say the APostolics have Biblical doctrine exactly right, is everyone else hell bound because they did not understand what we understand?

If the Book says go left and you go right does that mean you're headed in the wrong direction? Of course it does. I am willing to leave a little space for ignorance playing a role in some people getting into Heaven, but I believe the message is the message is the message. The instructions in the Bible need to be followed or there's no point in having them there in the first place.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by 1399

If a person really believes then there are things they will do, i gotcha there.

I doubt if any of the previous preachers I mentioned preached that salvation begins and ends at the point of initial faith.

What I'm talking about is baptism in the name of Jesus vs baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Non Apostolics usually don't baptize saying the name of Jesus Christ. Many don't seek after the promised gift of the Holy Ghost upon the confession of their faith or after they are baptized. Sadly, they never experience what we experience. Then, by virtue of what our doctrine states, these same precious believers are doomed to hell.

Doesn't anyone else see that our doctrine leads us to a very exclusionary view of salvation? No one else is saved, according to our doctrine, except the Apostolics, and even then, only some of them, depending on a whole variety of other stuff.

Let's leave the variety of other stuff out of the equation for now and deal with this exclusionary view of salvation. What dos it mean to you when the Lord said the following:

Matt 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This sounds like God is espousing a very exclusionary path to life. In fact, I don't consider it a stretch to believe He's saying more will not find this path than do find this path.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Rico

Let's leave the variety of other stuff out of the equation for now and deal with this exclusionary view of salvation. What dos it mean to you when the Lord said the following:

Matt 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This sounds like God is espousing a very exclusionary path to life. In fact, I don't consider it a stretch to believe He's saying more will not find this path than do find this path.

It's not a stretch. It is the truth.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Well, the post was aimed at a phenomenon I've seen on this board a lot, and I made sure not to direct it at any particular person. But since the shoe fits, and you've chosen to wear it, I guess I'll respond.

First off, I didn't say that OP's have not said harsh things against Trinitarians. I understand it's something that goes both ways.

But since you put the spotlight on yourself here, I will say that in my mind , you in particular are one of those here who seems to be very quick to criticize OPs and quick to defend Trinitarians against criticism from OPs on this forum.... as if the "poor little Trinnies" are being beat upon by those mean Oneness folks.

I'm sorry sir, when it comes to how you deal with the issue. the term "fair and balanced" doesn't readily come to mind.

Regardless of what you might say now, I've seen enough of your posts to know that this is a pattern with you, one that I wouldn't even bother to try to change. It is what it is. That's between you and your God.

Bro. French, I understand that you feel that you and your beliefs have been attacked by trinitarians. The point of my post was to give other side. I agree with MOW that I have heard far worse from our side pointing their direction than I have heard coming our way. When I responded to your post you had just posted right after I did and it seemed to be that you were talking to me but not mentioning my name. You pointed your opinion of me and now I return the favor. I feel you fall into what you would call the moderate column. But for me you are WAY right. I too have seen enough of your posts that my opinion is that you are not anywhere close to balanced when it comes to sticking up for what is right.

I am fairly certain that you are not too happy when someone rips apart a trinitarian. But you certainly do not speak up in defense. I step upm not because I agree with them but I step up because they are not given the same respect that our side demands we receive from them. Do you agree? This is an OPEN OP forum. Each of us are able to voice opinions on any subject no matter how taboo. I respect your beliefs elder, but your attitude towards those on the opposite side of the street from you does not seem all too cordial. Please understand I am not saying that openly attack them, but certainly you do not speak about treating them fairly.

Sis Alvear the other day said some thing that I believe is one of the most balanced statements I have ever read. She said something along the lines that she is very knowledgeable on the ONENESS front, but that she might not be accurate in others. Balanced. I am the second to admit I do not know everything, but I do know alot. There are areas that I am not perfect, but you say you have read MANY of my posts and you feel that I have a pattern. I defend trinitarians. You know I am a 1-stepper. There needs to be people on here that defend the other side when many on here unmercifully trash them. If you DO actually read my post you will find that I am fairly balanced. When people get outta hand bashing 3-steppers I speak up. But you know what there are enough 3-steppers on here that you can all defend yourselves.

I am not upset at your post at all. I wanted you to actually know how I feel about this stuff. I am on no soap box. I do know many trinitarians and most all that I know have never said a horrible word to me about us. One might say we have misunderstanding of the scripture, I can handle that. But what I hear from people on your side is that they are unsaved and damned for hell and the whole 9 yards. We MUST be fair with each other. It is your choice to not believe that trinitarians are lost, but please be curtious. It is just as wrong for your side to bash them as it is for them to bash you. But stepping into God's role as the Judge is just as sinful as anyother sin. You might say you judge by the Bible and that is fine, but do not be quick to jump on someone or some people that you know not their motives and God does.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Rico

Let's leave the variety of other stuff out of the equation for now and deal with this exclusionary view of salvation. What dos it mean to you when the Lord said the following:

Matt 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This sounds like God is espousing a very exclusionary path to life. In fact, I don't consider it a stretch to believe He's saying more will not find this path than do find this path.

I've often gotten the impression that some people have ajdusted their salvation doctrine to make it more "inclusive" because it would make them feel better to think that a lot more people are going to heaven than strict adherence to Act 2:38 would suggest.

I'm sad about even one person going to hell...but I cant allow that to cause me to modify my theology, to make me feel that maybe a lot of people who didnt obey the gospel will still go to heaven.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I've often gotten the impression that some people have ajdusted their salvation doctrine to make it more "inclusive" because it would make them feel better to think that a lot more people are going to heaven than strict adherence to Act 2:38 would suggest.

I'm sad about even one person going to hell...but I cant allow that to cause me to modify my theology, to make me feel that maybe a lot of people who didnt obey the gospel will still go to heaven.

Exactly. It can be a tough choice to make, but integrity and loyalty to the Word of God demands that the choice be made.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I've often gotten the impression that some people have ajdusted their salvation doctrine to make it more "inclusive" because it would make them feel better to think that a lot more people are going to heaven than strict adherence to Act 2:38 would suggest.

I'm sad about even one person going to hell...but I cant allow that to cause me to modify my theology, to make me feel that maybe a lot of people who didnt obey the gospel will still go to heaven.

Amen!

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by 1399

If a person really believes then there are things they will do, i gotcha there.

I doubt if any of the previous preachers I mentioned preached that salvation begins and ends at the point of initial faith.

What I'm talking about is baptism in the name of Jesus vs baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Non Apostolics usually don't baptize saying the name of Jesus Christ. Many don't seek after the promised gift of the Holy Ghost upon the confession of their faith or after they are baptized. Sadly, they never experience what we experience. Then, by virtue of what our doctrine states, these same precious believers are doomed to hell.

Doesn't anyone else see that our doctrine leads us to a very exclusionary view of salvation? No one else is saved, according to our doctrine, except the Apostolics, and even then, only some of them, depending on a whole variety of other stuff.

I agree with you.