Be Ye Perfect

[Adino]

I agree with much of what you say, but not with this. That means whoever is genuinely born again should never have a bad conscience, and that is simply not the case, Adino. As I said, I know people who were genuinley saved and yet have an evil conscience. It is sometimes due to conditioning, but at other times simply due to not having been taught what the cross did for us.

The inclincation to concern ourselves with works, which always brings a sense of inadequacy, is inbred in our lives since birth in sin. It is the knowledge of good and evil. We do not even need legalism to cause this. Legalism simply fits quite nicely with it, but we are naturally inclined towards feeling of inadequacy, already.

And unless we are taught the extent of what the cross did, we will have an evil conscience.

mfblume, I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same thing. When I say a "pure conscience" I'm speaking of the purged conscience. When I say "good conscience" the phrase means a conscience freed from guilt, not freed from the knowledge of evil or man's inclinations toward evil.

I agree that man has an innate yetzer hara, or evil inclination, and an innate yetzer hatov, or good inclination. This is not the subject of the author in Hebrews who speaks of man being made continually perfect as pertaining to the conscience. This deals with man's freedom of the guilt of sin before God. I wholly agree that a proper teaching of the cross is the remedy for the way some feel today.

I'll continue reading now....

[Michael The Disciple]

MBlume said:

The inclincation to concern ourselves with works, which always brings a sense of inadequacy, is inbred in our lives since birth in sin. It is the knowledge of good and evil. We do not even need legalism to cause this. Legalism simply fits quite nicely with it, but we are naturally inclined towards feeling of inadequacy, already.

I am stunned! So we have no need to be concerned with works? The scriptures most certainly point us to concern over works.

18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19: Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:18-20

We are commanded to DO WORKS meet for repentance. Why?

10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

Because thats what Christ created us to do!

On what basis does Yeshua judge his people?

23: And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Rev. 2:23

The basis of their works!

The last thing the lukewarm, cant stop sinning Church needs to hear, is that they should not be concerned with their works.

[Adino]

A good conscience towards God simply refers to a sincerity to truly trust and believe God for salvation.

I have to disagree. The good conscience toward God deals with man's purged conscience in regard to sin. This does, however, come when one, as you said, "truly trust[s] and believe[s] God for salvation."

As far as my baptismal reference, I realize Hebrews 10 is not preaching baptism. I only brought it up because it also is connected to a "good conscience" in Scripture. The baptismal candidate was to realize his freedom from the guilt of sin, thus his full assurance of faith in Christ, and his ability to boldly approach the throne of God with a clean conscience.

Good post, mfblume

[Adino]

Acceptance based performance

(Adino's position)

vs

Performance based acceptance
(Michael's position)

[Adino]

Otherwise known as .....

GRACE

vs

LAW

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Adino

Acceptance based performance

(Adino's position)

vs

Performance based acceptance
(Michael's position)

Straw man alert! My position is allowing the WHOLE COUNSEL OF ELOHIM to instruct us. Oh well one thing I am assured of. No doctrine of Yeshua and the Apostles weakens the truth that we are commanded:

Be ye therefore PERFECT even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I am stunned! So we have no need to be concerned with works? The scriptures most certainly point us to concern over works.

18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19: Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:18-20

We are commanded to DO WORKS meet for repentance. Why?

10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

Because thats what Christ created us to do!

On what basis does Yeshua judge his people?

23: And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Rev. 2:23

The basis of their works!

The last thing the lukewarm, cant stop sinning Church needs to hear, is that they should not be concerned with their works.

(Sigh.) Michael, I am speaking in context of legalism when I say "works". People stressed out over works in order to obtain approval before God was my point. We all know we must be careful to maintain good works.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

mfblume, I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same thing. When I say a "pure conscience" I'm speaking of the purged conscience. When I say "good conscience" the phrase means a conscience freed from guilt, not freed from the knowledge of evil or man's inclinations toward evil.

I agree that man has an innate yetzer hara, or evil inclination, and an innate yetzer hatov, or good inclination. This is not the subject of the author in Hebrews who speaks of man being made continually perfect as pertaining to the conscience. This deals with man's freedom of the guilt of sin before God. I wholly agree that a proper teaching of the cross is the remedy for the way some feel today.

I'll continue reading now....

Again, my point is the context of Hebrews 10 is dealing with people genuinely born again who cannot approach the throne in the holiest with boldness. I know some and have met them and tried helping them in these areas. They have an evil conscience since they do not think they're worthy to go boldly into the Holiest while all the time they can. It's not a matter of worth, but new birth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

(Sigh.) Michael, I am speaking in context of legalism when I say "works". People stressed out over works in order to obtain approval before God was my point. We all know we must be careful to maintain good works.

Ok I think I know what you are saying.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok I think I know what you are saying.

Thanks. Adino mentioined the issue of legalism, and that was the context of my words when mentioning works. Works prove our faith, but never obtain it.