If you had the floor for 10 minutes what would you say/ask?????

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Really, who cares about the numbers, they could be embellished by both parties to fit their particular needs/agendas.

What is the issue? What are we trying to prove here, beyond a discussion about whether the numbers are significant?

Good golly, go read the Title and the first post in this thread!

Pipe down, Sparky!

It is a simple point of order before the discussion can move forward.

Just be happy the post count on your thread is climbing.

[Neck]

My pastor is one of the 2000. So go and find the remaining 1999.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

My pastor is one of the 2000. So go and find the remaining 1999.

HAHAHA!!!!!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Pipe down, Sparky!

It is a simple point of order before the discussion can move forward.

Just be happy the post count on your thread is climbing.

Yea, it is like watching a barrel of egg shells and coffee grounds getting fuller and fuller...

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I think I understand what Neckstadt is TRYING to say.

There have been many who have left over the past two decades. I don't have any actuals, though , given time, I'm sure I could rustle those stats up.This is somewhat normal in any organization. Truth be told, our numbers are quite sluggish.

While the AOG and other Pentecostal orgs continue to have incredible growth, we are stumbling.

Many on both sides have left since the last GC .... I wonder what the actual numbers are .... since then?

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

Here is my original post.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

If some 2000 ministers who left the UPCI "SINCE 1990" can't get things changed.

How on earth could I have a voice and solution anyone would give a glance at?

Changing things today would by like nailing things to a door in the 1500..

Where did that get Martin Luther.


__________________________________________________ _______________________

Just because you have increase in ministers coming into an organization does not mean that a certain number did not turn over.

If you can't prove my numbers of 1.3% then answer my question.

IF the men that did leave left because they would not be heard?

How could you expect my solutions to be heard.

Oh for crying out loud. You want me to prove YOUR numbers? How does that work? Usually the one throwing the number out has the burden of proof.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I think I understand what Neckstadt is TRYING to say.

There have been many who have left over the past two decades. I don't have any actuals, though , given time, I'm sure I could rustle those stats up.This is somewhat normal in any organization. Truth be told, our numbers are quite sluggish.

While the AOG and other Pentecostal orgs continue to have incredible growth, we are stumbling.

Uhm, you might want to check your stats on that one. I would be interested to read some.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Yea, it is like watching a barrel of egg shells and coffee grounds getting fuller and fuller...

Makes for great compost.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by rrford

Uhm, you might want to check your stats on that one. I would be interested to read some.

Hey Bro, I'll pm them to you tomorrow.

I do know the AOG has grown by a third since 1990.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I would like to know something.

If you were given 10 minutes to speak to the entire general board of the United Pentecostal Church what would you say? What would you ask. What are the issues you would like to discuss?

This would be what I would say.

Good day brethern, in the lovely name of Jesus, I only have 15 minutes so I will get to the point.

The state of the church, in my opinion cannot continue to operate as it has in the past with the same mindset toward organization and/or ministry. I say this because I understand how the business climate has changed dramatically from how business was conducted in past generations. The church cannot continue to operate in the vertical, top-down, heirarchical structure and still expect to succeed and maintain relevance.

Why has the secular business structure changed? Because our society has changed in terms of priorities, focus, education, and the natural cycle of change. Those same people are in your churches, believe it or not.

I know there are those who cross their arms with a crusty look and the resistive attitude that change=compromise, but those same people are the ones who will deprive their community of a church because that once they die off, the church will founder into non-existence.

As I am sure you also know, from a grassroots perspective there are sparks running across the foundation of the church. People are beginning to understand the effect of 30 years of preaching religious culture as though it were the sovereign word of God. It hasn't worked, it hasn't produced the holiness that people who embrace the standards are supposed to have and have come to expect from others. The law is there, the attendance is there, but only, in my opinion through peer pressure, suggestion, and insinuation.

So in a few words, the UPC has always been about attempting to preserve and protect their biblical doctrines and their social doctrines in an attempt to maintain a religious separation from the mainstream, however people do not grow, they are not spiritually stronger, churches are not stronger when the organization has first and foremost its own existence as a priority. People are starting to figure it out.

BUMP! POW! BLAM! SOCK!