Inside the Mind of a Reformer

[Brother Price]

In order for reformation to come to the modern Apostolic Church, we must first realize our faults. From this, we can further understand what we need to do to come back to that we need to.

The first thing we must realize is that Oneness doctrine has been throughout history in various places and times. We think that it has not, but the doctrine has always been around. In other words, the truth was there, even if men did not understand or comprehend it. Have there been Oneness believers? I believe there have been some sporadic groups of Oneness believers, but not as some have led to believe. This is something that we know not for sure. But, we can know that the God of the Bible has allowed His Word to come forth, and that the truth is there for men to receive.

One of the biggest problems I have seen in the movement is the focus more on personalities than Christ. We have big name preachers and evangelists that get fame and glory, well known and even pseudo idolized for who they are. Let a church bring Bro. _________ to preach and watch the pews fill. But, let it be an ordinary service, and there will elbow room through the congregation. I believe this to be a huge problem within our ranks.

Another is a focus more on tradition than scripture. Just because it has been good in the past does not necessarily mean it is good now. But, men are willing, many times, to take the traditions over even the Word, which is a sad and scary thought. Jesus pointed the finger of justice at the Pharisees for doing the same thing. This brought severe judgment and the destruction of Jerusalem, because they rejected not only the scriptures, but their Messiah because of their power hunger and their traditions.

Another way we must reform is to realize that an organization does not mean one is right. When God has established a work in a city, He ordains a pastor to come and work that work. He chooses a man of God to work that work. No organization should be able to override what the Lord has chosen. If a pastor chooses to preach a man in his pulpit whom the organization does not agree with, that is his prerogative. Organizations should not own church property, should not be lords over the Kingdom of God, and should not be bullies who demand a pastor bow or be kicked out.

Another problem is in how we treat our fellow brethren, in some cases. This spirit is being torn down daily. Men are seeing more and more those who, like us, may be different but can still fellowship. It is not in the way of dress anymore, nor is it in the name above the door of your church. It has become about principles and ways to please God based on scriptural principled living, not in codes, rules, and laws. You cannot have a believer live by codes and rules without principles. And one dares not judge another believer because their application of those principles differs from your own.

We need a restoration of grace, mercy, truth, and then we will see revival and a new outpouring again. It is not about dress codes, traditions, or men’s power. It is about knowing Jesus Christ, who He is, and what His Word teaches. This is the reformation we need, and it has already started. It is about Him, and loving one another, and being brethren one to another. It is about loving God and His Word, and reaching to the lost. It is about being Jesus to the world. This is what we are returning to, and being restored to.

[mizpeh]

Pelathais,

You're saying that the truth of God, who He is and his plans for man, has endured through all generations by being passed down in the Bible but men have not known it.

This would mean that all that Christ went through to bring salvation to man was for nought for many generations while the "church" languished in carnality and error because no one knew the true and living God, the One that seeks to be worshipped in Spirit and truth. If no one, not one person, knew the truth but were unwitting guardians of the truth only, then they could not obey it, and they were not saved. Then the church was prevailed against because it lied dead and nonexistent.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the church or the body of Christ)" Mt 16:18

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Pelathais,

You're saying that the truth of God, who He is and his plans for man, has endured through all generations by being passed down in the Bible but men have not known it.

This would mean that all that Christ went through to bring salvation to man was for nought for many generations while the "church" languished in carnality and error because no one knew the true and living God, the One that seeks to be worshipped in Spirit and truth. If no one, not one person, knew the truth but were unwitting guardians of the truth only, then they could not obey it, and they were not saved. Then the church was prevailed against because it lied dead and nonexistent.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the church or the body of Christ)" Mt 16:18

Your false dilemma is true only if we accept your soteriological view of salvation and believe that your particular Christological view is salvific, Mizpeh

... surely most Christians ... yes even Trinnie Christians held the view that Peter expressed in this passage. Jesus was saying He, himself, is the rock that the church would be built on

... Peter believed that ... Jesus is the Christ ... and the son of the living God.

We're not the only ones who believe the mighty God was in Christ or have placed faith in Him. Many throughout the generations have known Him intimately and have had a saving relationship with the One True God.

[mizpeh]

Dan,

I know we don't agree on what constitutes being in the body of Christ. But from my POV if no one was born again of the water and the Spirit (the baptisms) down through the generations then the body of Christ did not exist on the earth and the truth did not endure in the hearts of men where it does most good but was hidden in the pages of the Holy Bible and the gates of hell (strength ) prevailed against the church.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan,

I know we don't agree on what constitutes being in the body of Christ. But from my POV if no one was born again of the water and the Spirit (the baptisms) down through the generations then the body of Christ did not exist on the earth and the truth did not endure in the hearts of men where it does most good but was hidden in the pages of the Holy Bible and the gates of hell (strength ) prevailed against the church.

Hell has not prevailed .... History and the Word supports my view .... they are witnesses to it ... as Pela said yours is a faith statement.

[SDG]

Herein lies another dilemma among those who believe the bulk of the Christian world is in apostasy...

when the Word of God and the plan of salvation become so cryptic that we believe we are the sole holder of the keys and the decoder ring to unlocking it then the number of the redeemed becomes smaller and smaller ...

John said he saw millions upon ... millions.

[SDG]

Furthermore in this passage Mizpeh I don't believe Jesus was saying that Hell would come against us ... but that we, the Church, have the power and authority to prevail against the gates of Hell. We're on the assault ...

One writer declares:

We have the keys of authority to live a victorious life. We can declare war on the works of the devil. We can exercise our authority on this earth and demand that the enemy take his hands off our lives and the lives of those we minister to. Authority is a position and a responsibility. Let's continue the works of Christ and set lives free in His Name. The Apostle Peter was given the keys because of his awareness and knowledge of who Jesus is. The revealed knowledge of Christ is a powerful force [the rock], and that knowledge comes with authority and responsibility to help others. Let's use the keys and pray that God will loose the bondages in the lives of others, and walk in the delegated authority of Christ. It was with great authority that the apostles ministered to others.

http://www.mercystreet.com/freedom/chapter3.html

Another writer states:

Jesus said the church was designed to assault the "gates of hell." "Gates" in biblical terminology represent authority and power. The "gates of hell," then, stand for the power of death. Our King did not simply declare war on death; He conquered death. Death, the last and most feared enemy of man, was set loose on the world as a consequence of human sin. But by the power of the resurrected Christ, His church has the authority to rescue the lost from the doomed city of death and to usher them into God's Kingdom, where there will be no more death.

http://www.empoweringkingdomgrowth.net/ekg.asp?page=116

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Whenever I see ugly things in ministry...I am soothed by Philippians 1:18


"The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

Great point J-Roc, Christ is our light and should be our focus, everything else is distorted and dysfunctional. This world is a screwed up place.

[Adino]

My home church, deemed COAR (Church of Adino's Revelation), hereby restores the first century teaching that no one can be "saved" IF A GROUP of people are not present. All accounts in Acts show groups present and not a single person received water baptism or spoke in tongues without others watching. Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 cleary mention the presence of at least half a dozen peers. While others are not mentioned in Philip's encounter with the eunuch it is most logical to realize this eunuch, guardian of Ethiopian Queen Candace's treasure, was traveling with an entourage because of his high status and importance (hey, if others can assume tongues happened here I can certainly assume he was not traveling alone). I recognize that this doctrine is not mentioned in the epistles, but we, of course, have to realize Paul wrote to those who were already saved. The truth stands.

This doctrine is what the early Church really taught. It is first century TRUTH and I hereby restore it today (I may even add the necessity of only wearing sandals and a robe for a valid saving experience at a later date). While I realize no historical witness can be found throughout the ages confirming the continuation of this doctrine I realize the gates of hell have never prevailed against God's true Church and blindly trust that the TRUTH has been alive somewhere since the first century. I simply restore it to greater awareness and proclaim its TRUTH to you heretical nonbelievers who are on your way to hell until you accept it.

If you're nice and you find me in a good mood I might even consider you saved up to this time because you have walked in the light you have been shown. I now reveal new light from God...... accept it or go to hell.

Sound familiar?

Anyone willing to heed the call? I still have room at the top in the administration.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Adino

My home church, deemed COAR (Church of Adino's Revelation), hereby restores the first century teaching that no one can be "saved" IF A GROUP of people are not present. All accounts in Acts show groups present and not a single person received water baptism or spoke in tongues without others watching. Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 cleary mention the presence of at least half a dozen peers. While others are not mentioned in Philip's encounter with the eunuch it is most logical to realize this eunuch, guardian of Ethiopian Queen Candace's treasure, was traveling with an entourage because of his high status and importance (hey, if others can assume tongues happened here I can certainly assume he was not traveling alone). I recognize that this doctrine is not mentioned in the epistles, but we, of course, have to realize Paul wrote to those who were already saved. The truth stands.

This doctrine is what the early Church really taught. It is first century TRUTH and I hereby restore it today (I may even add the necessity of only wearing sandals and a robe for a valid saving experience at a later date). While I realize no historical witness can be found throughout the ages confirming the continuation of this doctrine I realize the gates of hell have never prevailed against God's true Church and blindly trust that the TRUTH has been alive somewhere since the first century. I simply restore it to greater awareness and proclaim its TRUTH to you heretical nonbelievers who are on your way to hell until you accept it.

If you're nice and you find me in a good mood I might even consider you saved up to this time because you have walked in the light you have been shown. I now reveal new light from God...... accept it or go to hell.

Sound familiar?

Anyone willing to heed the call? I still have room at the top in the administration.

What a true apostolic warrior you are, Adino.