Looks to me like you are on one because you are always talking about it.
Yes, I am definitely a gadfly in that regard, as I was as a Christian too. My background is apostolic, and we were supposed to be fearless! I try to keep the more serious aspects of a non-faith world view here on Timmy Talk (instead of general threads), for which I do respect and appreciate the moderators for allowing thus far, as well as appreciate anyone who can engage here in a civilized way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
Looks to me like you are on one because you are always talking about it.
Back when I was pestering the world to accept Jesus as their savior, or to be baptized in Jesus name and receive the holy Ghost, no one (or at least no one I ever heard back from) thought THAT was too much (nor too rude, I hope.) Instead it was considered "being on fire for god."
Of course there is another population of atheists who feel no need to express anything about what faiths they DON'T believe in--and that's what current Christians wish all of us would do. But chances are the population of silent atheists are those for whom religious belief never really cost them anything in the first place--they have simply been unbelievers (by default) since birth. But consider the population of "ex" anythings--Excommunist, Exmormon, ExAmway, Exwhatever--these people often become useful whistle blowers due to their sense of responsibility to tell their discoveries, which may help others avoid the same pitfalls (or even the same pain, if applicable.) As you said, ILG, << I think we are all responsible to share what we know.>> So in addition to natural empathy as a motivation, I also simply enjoy trying to put important concepts into clear enough words. (I'm not there yet.)
Anyhow, my overall theme is that the overall methodology of faith is the problem, and not a solution to arrive at knowing anything demonstrably reality-based.
Will come back later about the disparate definitions of what faith is. I'm noticing at at least three different definitions in previous posts.
"Clarity needed before agreement!" (Dennis Prager motto.)
Thanks.
Ah, okay! LOL....I was lookin at the
times the thread has been viewed!
Most views of Cafe Blog-a-bit. Only 6th in the whole forum. But how can I compete with the likes of "Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns" or "Do You Believe In Women Preachers?"?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I think brainwashing is different than participating in and thinking about ideas. Brainwashing means you are totally bought in.
But are not Christians supposed to be "totally bought in" after conversion? I was always hoping to be brainwashed by the Holy Ghost or the Word of God. Apparently it didn't happen, ultimately.
Anyhow, ILG, we have a list of circumstances in common regarding things leading up to conversion to Apostolic JN Christianity.
I think my first deeply felt "quasi-spiritual experience" was when my father gave me a little Catholic prayer book at about age 5 or 6. It was on the day of my First Holy Communion, and that book felt so precious--here was how to pray to god, supposedly, although I couldn't even read well at that point. And thus few of us realize why we don't really question which major god is the "correct" god--our culture, or family, or nation determines it (statistically speaking.)
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Originally Posted by ILG
I was not allowed to go to a different church than Catholic at the time so I just went there.
I thought I liked being a Catholic kid until I reached age for candidacy for the sacrament of "Confirmation, " at which point I decided the Catholic church was just too much pointless pomp and silly gold-fringed Vestments (age 12.) I couldn't see that as god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
There was a revival I went to. I had never been to a revival in my life.
A year after rejecting my "Sacrament of Confirmation" an Excatholic nun took me to a charismatic revival meeting. I was impressed but went on with life for about 3 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
My first experience was a few years before I got into the UPC when "gave my heart to the Lord" through reading a book.
I recall feeling repentive and wanting god in my life when reading some kind of evangelical book (maybe one by Hal Lindsey, "Late Great Planet Earth" or some such,) mid teens. But I also sometimes felt that way listening to Christian radio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
Later on, I started partying and after 18 months of hard drinking decided I wanted God back in my life.
Yep, as a teen, I wanted God in my life due to the guilt I felt from sin in general. I latched onto anything or anyone (Christian) who sounded like they knew what they were talking about.
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Originally Posted by ILG
I felt CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN.
Me too, immediately after "confessing Christ" to a pastor at AoG altar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
I was sitting in the living room. All of a sudden I felt the Holy Ghost come on me and I burst into tongues.
Ya, I first spoke in tongues for first time at my home, while praying, couple weeks after above "altar confession."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
Later on, we visited the UPC and the rest is history...I loved standards from the very beginning.
Me too, got baptized in JN in a PAW church, stayed there for 7 years, then "graduated" to UPC and was even happier with that. They (UPC) were stronger about standards, but I wasn't taught it was a salvation issue. (Or was I? Hmm...oh well, who cares now... LOL)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
I jumped in with both feet and loved them until I saw the heartache that they caused when people taught them as salvational.
I never noticed the heartaches--I was a male.
Anyhow, looking back, it's apparent I was psychologically a SITTING DUCK for the kind of gospel that attracted me, as well as the kind of response I had. My childhood was at best unstable from moving all over the world every other year as a military brat. It's difficult to experience many real friendships that way (except possibly from your own family, but we were always fighting with each other.) So, just in time, here comes Jesus, the Friendly God who promises to never leave you if you live for him! (Cough, cough, especially for those possessing an active imagination.)
Anyhow, looking back, it's apparent I was psychologically a SITTING DUCK for the kind of gospel that attracted me, as well as the kind of response I had. My childhood was at best unstable from moving all over the world every other year as a military brat. It's difficult to experience many real friendships that way (except possibly from your own family, but we were always fighting with each other.) So, just in time, here comes Jesus, the Friendly God who promises to never leave you if you live for him! (Cough, cough, especially for those possessing an active imagination.)
Mmkay. I feel like this conversation has come to a kind of standstill. You explain you had the same kinds of experiences I had but at the same time you don't seem to feel that the experiences were miraculous, merely psychological. I have toyed with the idea that my experiences were merely psychological but I have not landed there. I don't believe they were merely psychological although much of what happened beyond my conversion was.
My main concern about the agnostic/atheist movement is the question of whether people are just finding another group to meet their needs. These needs are different than what they used to be....so they exchange one group for the next one. This new "group" explains away all the experiences and it jives with them because they need someone to explain things up to this point......I don't want to jump on any new bandwagons where all my beliefs are handed to me on a sheet of paper or in a video where people have nicely packaged up beliefs and they all walk in lock-step together. Been there done that. So, I don't really fit in anywhere and that is tough sometimes.
I try to take my experiences for what I see them as and I don't let anyone else define that for me. Sometimes that's messy and untidy but that's okay by me. I don't feel a strong need to be defined. I do feel a strong desire to search for God and the truth but I don't feel any anxiety about it. I feel I am where I need to be and that is a great feeling. In the UPC, I always felt like peace was just over the next hill. It was exhausting and terrible.
My original conversion experience left me with a deep sense of peace and love inside my soul. That was robbed by the church.......but it is coming back.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
You explain you had the same kinds of experiences I had but at the same time you don't seem to feel that the experiences were miraculous, merely psychological.
Yes, I think we understand each other's interpretation of our pasts, and we have different interpretations about similar experiences. Is that a standstill, or rather a resolution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
My main concern about the agnostic/atheist movement is the question of whether people are just finding another group to meet their needs.
Sure, people join groups to be around those they have the most in common with. And new joiners often expect affirmation from others. How is that a "concern?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
I don't want to jump on any new bandwagons where all my beliefs are handed to me on a sheet of paper or in a video where people have nicely packaged up beliefs and they all walk in lock-step together. Been there done that. So, I don't really fit in anywhere and that is tough sometimes.
I get it. I'm not in a group now, but wish I were. I do enjoy the "like minded viewpoints" as presented in some Youtubes, and wish I personally knew some of those people. I also enjoy a well done opposing viewpoint. I've never felt pressure to jump on any bandwagon if I didn't first like the band's music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
I try to take my experiences for what I see them as and I don't let anyone else define that for me.
Me neither, but I *do* try to define everything. I can't imagine a concept being "truth" without it being somehow defined and put through the wringer. I wouldn't be able to communicate "my" truth, nor receive anyone else's truth, until it's defined as much as possible (which basically means described and open for testing.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
My original conversion experience left me with a deep sense of peace and love inside my soul. That was robbed by the church.......but it is coming back.
May your recovery continue to yield results. Sounds like it's working for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
Thanks for the definition, Prax. But does that definition settle anything? Many people agree about the extreme examples of brainwashing. But WHO gets to decide the line regarding what "unethical" means? Who gets to decide the line regarding what COERCION is?
For example, for any authoritative person in a child's life to often inform him or her about a supposed connection between the child's behavior (or decisions) with an invisible place of divine torment after death--such does fit the above definition for brainwashing. A not uncommon example demonstrated in the attached YT.
(But what it really comes down to is there is socially acceptable brainwashing, and not socially acceptable brainwashing. The difference depends on the particular society, along with the intended goal of the "brainwash." That explains most of the fuzzy borders, IMO.)
I am definitely a gadfly in that regard, as I was as a Christian too. My background is apostolic, and we were supposed to be fearless! I try to keep the more serious aspects of a non-faith world view here on Timmy Talk (instead of general threads), for which I do respect and appreciate the moderators for allowing thus far, as well as appreciate anyone who can engage here in a civilized way. 
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