New life? New behavior? New attitude? Consider (historically) how that many people (especially the young) can and have overturned their whole lives and behavior upon buying into world views associated with:
Nazi Party. Amway Sales Culture. Eastern Woowoo Religion. A Frat House. A Street Gang. A Rock Group. A Jihad Community. And so on. Such groups provide new meaning to people's lives, so they either conform (sometimes spiritually) to the system, or else leave--or any variation in between total conforming and wanting to leave. Anyhow, all those so-called families are at first just an external influence, but once purchased for oneself, things can quickly toggle over to being and feeling internally wonderful, something beyond ourselves and therefore pretty persuasive of its underlying credibility, just like religious faith.
I can see how this can be true for many. However, for me, my conversion experience was very internal, the external church just being something that happened and took root afterwards. What you describe can explain joining a group and receiving external validation but it does not explain the miraculous change that took place INSIDE me, apart from the group. My experience and the church are two separate things. Therefore, I have a very hard time looking at it from anything but a faith point of view. I am changed from that conversion to this day. It did not leave me when I left the church.
Quote:
So, provide any new Acts 2:38 convert a church full of people who have experienced the same thing, who are well trained to provide cues, to answer questions, to offer comfort, encouragement, love. The conversion feels like the miraculous--yet all still psychological. The overall result is deep internalization. What was once someone else's concept becomes our own deeply held concept of god--complete conversion, but nothing unique to the Acts 2:38 experience, nor to any other faith or world view.
This also happened to me slowly over time, but initially, it was not so. My conversion and this process are not one in the same. It's just that the church was able to explain what already happened to me when no one else could. And so, I assumed they were right about the rest of things too.
Quote:
The bigger miracle to me is rather how the human brain can, in the middle of seemingly intractable faith, simply think itself out of relatively deep self-delusion. The less interesting miracle (to me) is how people get hooked by a faith that has evolved intentionally "that you may believe." (John 20:31)
This type of "faith" you explain is more like a brainwashing. I believe this happens to some who are simply trying to fit into the church.
Quote:
I do also understand why someone (probably accompanied with deep sense of gratitude, debt, or even a lingering fear of punishment) does not want to relabel or reinterpret their own conversion as "just human psychology."
This comment may not be directed at me, but I have (and never really have had) much of any feeling of gratitude, debt or fear of punishment (I had this fear of punishment while in the church though) towards or from the church. My gratitude and debt has been toward God alone. What He did for me at my conversion experience is WHY I did all the things I did for the church, feeling I was doing those things for God. The things I did were never to gain approval from the church, they were what I did based on my understanding of what God wanted from me based upon my understanding of what was taught. When I realized what they were teaching me was in error, I changed what I was doing and still live my life according to what I feel God wants from me. However, not having it spoon-fed to me makes it very hard to decipher what exactly He does want. And I miss the fellowship of church. However, I felt like God wanted me to quit going (which some people can't wrap their heads around, I know.) I don
t know if that is fo forever or for just now.
Quote:
A few people--having untethered themselves from the traditional authority of scripture--may even toy with imagining a kind of God that does make better sense--someone they can live with, instead of the literalist-derived Bible God.
This may describe me. I am not sure. I do not believe in the authority of scripture as was taught to me in the UPC. However, I don't know exactly what I do believe. I could easily throw it all away if it were not for my conversion experience, which keeps me pondering the whole thing.
Quote:
we then can have potentially 7.1 billion versions of a personal god where no one can point to any particularly authoritative source of information about that god, except to say, "He's just within you, and faith is the key."
That is sort of what I believe. We are all on a faith journey (or should be.....some people just push it aside and away). I think that our faith journey is very personal and we have to answer for it. The only authority that I need is the authority of my satisfaction with my journey and the satisfaction of those I hold dear. I believe we need other people as a gauge of sorts, because we are not made to be an island. On the flip-side, we alone are responsible for our relationship with God to know whether it is what it needs to be or not.
Quote:
If however, there is a different, Real God out there who's simply not saying much so far, that kind of God will probably have no punishment for the likes of me blowing the whistle on the foolishness of the other morally backwards gods, such as Yahweh & Company.
I think we are all responsible to share what we know and believe (to some extent). In that case, if your life and your experiences lead you to believe what you believe about a morally backwards god (not the real God but the one that is taught), I think he would hold you responsible to blow the whistle on that false god. I don't know what I believe about eternal punishment but I am much less likely to believe in one now. If you did not say and fight for what you believe in, there may not be a punishment but a disappointment from a God who feels that the world can only be what it fully should be when we all live the life we were truly meant to live. For you, that means blowing the whistle. I would hate for you to disappoint God.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
I don't read this thread (much) lol, but, hey I was bored today.
Still have not read most posts but just sort of scrolled thru this last page.
This one little post from marcbee, caught my eye......
Quote:
Wow, a powerful and Very Active God you are claiming there. But the thing I notice from Christians is always about what their god's-a-gonna-do in the future, or how He already DONE IT in the past. But for right now in our time, our generation, er, uh, god doesn't need to really prove anything. Too bad for this generation. Okay, I'm still willing to investigate where, or when, or if the god still does anything specifically detectable in the past, present, or whatever, whenever. Maybe for now your god just needs to get some sleep.
__________________
Marc, whether you believe in God or not is your business. How anyone can say they don't believe in the Almighty God is beyond my comprehension though.
I just wanted to say that God (JESUS) IS powerful AND very active.
My Jesus has done lots in the past and yes, is about to lots in the future, but, He is also doing lots right in the here and now. In my life alone He has done so very much. Might not mean alot to you what goes on in my life and circumstance, but, praise God, it means alot to me! So wonderful to know God in that personal way and know that He cares for me to help me in my time of need.
No, all things I've prayed for have not been answered in ways that I would have liked, but they were answered. And I know it will be for my good in the long run, whether I can see that now or not. I trust Him.
Oh and for that last part. God ain't sleepin but, sadly alot of humanity is....
I don't read this thread (much) lol, but, hey I was bored today.
Still have not read most posts but just sort of scrolled thru this last page.
This one little post from marcbee, caught my eye......
Marc, whether you believe in God or not is your business. How anyone can say they don't believe in the Almighty God is beyond my comprehension though.
I just wanted to say that God (JESUS) IS powerful AND very active.
My Jesus has done lots in the past and yes, is about to lots in the future, but, He is also doing lots right in the here and now. In my life alone He has done so very much. Might not mean alot to you what goes on in my life and circumstance, but, praise God, it means alot to me! So wonderful to know God in that personal way and know that He cares for me to help me in my time of need.
No, all things I've prayed for have not been answered in ways that I would have liked, but they were answered. And I know it will be for my good in the long run, whether I can see that now or not. I trust Him.
Oh and for that last part. God ain't sleepin but, sadly alot of humanity is....
Anyway, just had to make a little comment.
Welcome to Timmy Talk, Lacey. You should read it all from the beginning. Good stuff in here!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I can see how this can be true for many. However, for me, my conversion experience was very internal, the external church just being something that happened and took root afterwards.
Actually I was trying to claim that (some) others within those groups can also experience deep, internal, life changing, real conversions, in spite of the typical initial exposure being external. Some of them could even describe it as being "born again". Of course, probably none of my examples would claim to include "the definitely miraculous" as you do. I am only highlighting demonstrable behavioral change, demonstrable change of heart per their own stories and claims, which are probably just as valid as our stories and claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... However, for me, my conversion experience was very internal, the external church just being something that happened and took root afterwards.
Ditto for me, at least that's what it seemed like at the time, and for the subsequent 20 years anyhow. Would have felt like heresy to suppose otherwise!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
I am changed from that conversion to this day. It did not leave me when I left the church.
Partial ditto, the only thing that left me after I quit going to church was the rest of my superstitious belief system. I remained a "good person" (or pick whatever other measure of decency one thinks is supposed to be destroyed upon leaving.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... This type of "faith" you explain is more like a brainwashing.
Brainwashing is an emotionally charged negative word. So lets propose two types--indoctrination that is forced and indoctrination voluntarily engaged in (but both "brainwashing.") Is voluntarily adopted Christian doctrine a brainwashing? It's probably supposed to be! (I even used to cheekily say, "Jesus washed my brain, praise God!") My original conversion did not happen all in a vacuum without any external indoctrination. Did yours? Some of my behavior changes (and inner changes of attitude) were practically instantaneous, and some occurred through the normal process of "overcoming." We were taught that such signs of progress are the ongoing comfirmation of the miraculous working of the Holy Ghost in our lives. We were taught the emotional aspect of receiving the HG was to be cherished (if not also repeated whenever possible, ie, "refilling") but not to be regarded as the primary thing for evaluating one's salvation. Made sense at the time. But okay, perhaps I've never "Had The Experience" compared with the experience you describe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... The things I did were never to gain approval from the church, they were what I did based on my understanding of what God wanted from me based upon my understanding of what was taught.
That's probably true for the majority of born again Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... However, I don't know exactly what I do believe... We are all on a faith journey (or should be.....some people just push it aside and away).
"should be" ? Why? If my life is better without belief in a supernatural spirit-world, why do I need another faith journey?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... I think we are all responsible to share what we know ..
It's probably human nature to want to share what we know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... and believe (to some extent).
That's probably also human nature, however unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
... if your life and your experiences lead you to believe what you believe about a morally backwards god (not the real God but the one that is taught), I think he would hold you responsible to blow the wh If you did not say and fight for what you believe in, there may not be a punishment but a disappointment from a God who feels that the world can only be what it fully should be when we all live the life we were truly meant to live. For you, that means blowing the whistle. I would hate for you to disappoint God.
Okay (this is fun, BTW) since in your belief system everyone gets to define (or to not define) their own god without being answerable to anyone else's version (potentially 7.1 billion versions of god in the world) then great, my supposed god would not be disappointed one way or another regarding what I say about the false gods. An Omniscient, Omnipotent god cannot experience disappointment--that's a human trait men gave to the bible god, IMO.
Actually I was trying to claim that (some) others within those groups can also experience deep, internal, life changing, real conversions, in spite of the typical initial exposure being external. Some of them could even describe it as being "born again". Of course, probably none of my examples would claim to include "the definitely miraculous" as you do. I am only highlighting demonstrable behavioral change, demonstrable change of heart per their own stories and claims, which are probably just as valid as our stories and claims.
I think there are probably people who change because they want to, because they are around people who act differently etc. But then there are people who experience a power that allows them to change. This is what happened to me. Power first, exposure to group norms later. Some experience this power and some muster the power to change from the inside out and then some just change to fit in. The first type, is, I think a definite faith experience. The second type may or may not fit into this category and the third is simply external.
Quote:
Ditto for me, at least that's what it seemed like at the time, and for the subsequent 20 years anyhow. Would have felt like heresy to suppose otherwise!
I'm not concerned with heresy. I am concerned with truth.
Quote:
Brainwashing is an emotionally charged negative word. So lets propose two types--indoctrination that is forced and indoctrination voluntarily engaged in (but both "brainwashing.") Is voluntarily adopted Christian doctrine a brainwashing?
I think brainwashing is different than participating in and thinking about ideas. Brainwashing means you are totally bought in.
I had questions that were not answered (but I feel I was brainwashed to a certain degree). I assumed my questions would be answered in time. They certainly were but definitely not in the way I thought they would be! As much as I tried to be a critical thinker (and I really did try) the only things I was able to hold onto as an individual were a few small things that I refused to budge on. For example, I refused to braid my hair or wear gold or pearl buttons since it seemed consistent with the teachings. It was not, however, consistent with the culture and people thought I was odd that I would get hung up on these things. It was my way of keeping and expressing my individuality and keeping my individual thoughts when my questions were not answered.
Quote:
My original conversion did not happen all in a vacuum without any external indoctrination. Did yours?
Sort of. My first experience was a few years before I got into the UPC when "gave my heart to the Lord" through reading a book. I was not allowed to go to a different church than Catholic at the time so I just went there. However, I did change on the inside with this experience. Later on, I started partying and after 18 months of hard drinking decided I wanted God back in my life. I searched for this and one day a friend called me and asked if I wanted to come and visit. I did and she told me a simple testimony, that was about it and when I met her cousin, I had this very, very strong pull to pray. We went to her cousins house and I said outright with no prompting "I want to give my life to God" and I started crying. I had no idea she was going to pull out a book and start reading scripture to me, but she did. I was kind of irritated, but I just went with the flow and repeated the phases about giving my life to Jesus. When I got done, I was flying. I was done drinking, smoking and I was CHANGED. I had tried very hard to change before this but was unable to. This gave me the POWER to change. And I did. Then, I was baptized in the titles. I felt CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. It was amazing. I had heard of tongues and tried to do it before a couple times, but it never felt like anything, really. Then, after I was baptized, we went back to this cousin's house and I was sitting in the living room. All of a sudden I felt the Holy Ghost come on me and I burst into tongues. I went into the bathroom by myself and talked in tongues for an hour or so and God was just washing over me in an amazing way.
There was a revival I went to. I had never been to a revival in my life. I went to the front and I was talking in tongues. I had never heard of being slain in the spirit before but the preacher came up and bopped me on the head. All of a sudden the most amazing power flew through me and I fell backwards. There were professional "catchers" there, but I didn't know it. It was a good thing they were there because I fell backwards like I had been hit by lightening and lay on the floor talking in tongues for a very long time.
Later on, we visited the UPC and the rest is history. I felt very drawn to the UPC. We didn't know anything about God church, the Bible or anything so whatever they taught us, we had nothing to counter it with.
I was baptized in Jesus name because my pastor told me to to be saved. However, I just did it because he said so. I never felt a thing when I was baptized in Jesus name. It seemed like the scripture commanded it from what he told me.
I loved standards from the very beginning. I jumped in with both feet and loved them until I saw the heartache that they caused when people taught them as salvational.
Quote:
Some of my behavior changes (and inner changes of attitude) were practically instantaneous, and some occurred through the normal process of "overcoming." We were taught that such signs of progress are the ongoing comfirmation of the miraculous working of the Holy Ghost in our lives. We were taught the emotional aspect of receiving the HG was to be cherished (if not also repeated whenever possible, ie, "refilling") but not to be regarded as the primary thing for evaluating one's salvation. Made sense at the time. But okay, perhaps I've never "Had The Experience" compared with the experience you describe.
I had many experiences after the initial ones but looking back, I think many were manufactured because of what was taught. It is hard for me to know what was manufactured and what wasn't but those initial experiences were so real to me.
Just the other night, for the first time in months or years, I lay in bed and let myself go into that realm. I spoke in tongues and felt so clean, clean and washed from the inside. I don't know. I can't explain these things. If you are right and my brain is simply wired this way to expect something from these experiences, so be it. But this happens rarely now and there have been times that I have spoken in tongues and it made me nauseated. At those times, I simply quit. I liken this to the real vs the fake. One was manufactured and one was not. Or, one was my brain accepting the message and one was remembering the sickness. But I can't forget those initial experiences that were so real and so untaught and unexpected, even.
Quote:
"should be" ? Why? If my life is better without belief in a supernatural spirit-world, why do I need another faith journey?
Looks to me like you are on one because you are always talking about it.
Quote:
Okay (this is fun, BTW) since in your belief system everyone gets to define (or to not define) their own god without being answerable to anyone else's version (potentially 7.1 billion versions of god in the world) then great, my supposed god would not be disappointed one way or another regarding what I say about the false gods. An Omniscient, Omnipotent god cannot experience disappointment--that's a human trait men gave to the bible god, IMO.
I am not positive that God is omniscient and omnipotent. Maybe He is. Or maybe not.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
. . .
Looks to me like you are on one because you are always talking about it.
. . .
I think you have a point, there. Of course, Marc was responding to your "should be" as if you were recommending your particular walk of faith, or one similar to it in that it would involve faith in God. (At least I think that's what he was doing, and I think you probably did mean that -- correct me if I'm wrong.)
But yes, you have a point. Marc has some faith in the strictest sense, and so do I. We have faith in ourselves, in certain other people, in human achievement, in light switches, cars, telephones, etc. We trust them. That trust is not always warranted, of course. But then, is trust in God always warranted? Does it always work? I submit that it does not.
Pretty much everyone here (if not 100%) admit that God does not always heal, for example. Many have posted that exactly. But they always feel obligated to add to it, to make it seem like God didn't break a promise -- i.e., that he was trustworthy. E.g., they have to say "We don't know why" or "God had his reasons" or "my faith wasn't strong enough" (without mentioning that God is the author and finisher of our faith!) or some such.
And why? Because they feel obligated to believe everything in the Bible is absolute truth. Even to the point of saying it is true even when circumstances contradict it. The circumstances are wrong -- not the Bible!
Well I for one am glad that I no longer feel such obligations. The cognitive dissonance almost destroyed me.
None of this is intended to dissuade you from you faith, however. It's just my point of view. A lot of it probably doesn't even apply to you personally, ILG. Do what works for you. A lot of believers (not you, that I know of) are not able to say that to me -- what works for them will work for everyone (even though it doesn't). Odd, yes?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I think you have a point, there. Of course, Marc was responding to your "should be" as if you were recommending your particular walk of faith, or one similar to it in that it would involve faith in God. (At least I think that's what he was doing, and I think you probably did mean that -- correct me if I'm wrong.)
I think everyone is on a search for truth, or should be. That is the faith walk I am referring to. If you are searching for truth, you are therefore on a faith walk, in my opinion
Quote:
But then, is trust in God always warranted? Does it always work? I submit that it does not.
I think trust in God is probably always warranted but trust in what we are taught about God or what we should expect from God is not. God is not the summation of what we have been taught about Him. He is beyond understanding but tragically, people say they understand and try to teach other people what they think they know about him to the extent that they castigate them if they don't agree with their notions.
Quote:
Pretty much everyone here (if not 100%) admit that God does not always heal, for example. Many have posted that exactly. But they always feel obligated to add to it, to make it seem like God didn't break a promise -- i.e., that he was trustworthy. E.g., they have to say "We don't know why" or "God had his reasons" or "my faith wasn't strong enough" (without mentioning that God is the author and finisher of our faith!) or some such.
If you believe that God must always heal everyone or at the very least that he promised he always would, you have a problem with great cognitive dissonance, yes.
Quote:
And why? Because they feel obligated to believe everything in the Bible is absolute truth. Even to the point of saying it is true even when circumstances contradict it. The circumstances are wrong -- not the Bible!
Yes and that is tragic. Or what they have been taught the Bible says is absolute truth as well.
Quote:
Well I for one am glad that I no longer feel such obligations. The cognitive dissonance almost destroyed me.
Me too. it is a great relief to have let that go.
Quote:
None of this is intended to dissuade you from you faith, however. It's just my point of view. A lot of it probably doesn't even apply to you personally, ILG. Do what works for you. A lot of believers (not you, that I know of) are not able to say that to me -- what works for them will work for everyone (even though it doesn't). Odd, yes?
I think we are all unique and NO ONE anywhere will think and believe and feel exactly like another. It is this monolithic thought, this force of you must think exactly as I do or you are lost that is the great tragedy in religion.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
I would hate for you to disappoint God.
So wonderful to know God in that personal way and know that He cares for me to help me in my time of need. 
Linear Mode
