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  #1091  
Old 10-12-2014, 06:26 PM
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Lafon Lafon is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Just curios, for something about the following passages from the New Testament book of Hebrews "strikes me as quite" odd, that is, when the issue of (mandatory) tithing of one's financial income rises its "ugly head" (as it has done here):

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; (pls note Jesus Christ's words of Matthew 5:48) not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (see Hebrews 6:1-2).

Where within these principles of our Lord's doctrines (i.e., teachings) is the matter of "tithing" found? If it was so vitally important, as all of the pro-tithers seem to believe, then should one not question why the writer of Hebrews did not include it as being one of the elementary or fundamental doctrines/teachings o our Lord?
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  #1092  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:52 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafon View Post
Just curios, for something about the following passages from the New Testament book of Hebrews "strikes me as quite" odd, that is, when the issue of (mandatory) tithing of one's financial income rises its "ugly head" (as it has done here):

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; (pls note Jesus Christ's words of Matthew 5:48) not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (see Hebrews 6:1-2).

Where within these principles of our Lord's doctrines (i.e., teachings) is the matter of "tithing" found? If it was so vitally important, as all of the pro-tithers seem to believe, then should one not question why the writer of Hebrews did not include it as being one of the elementary or fundamental doctrines/teachings o our Lord?
If we used your logic then the ONLY doctrine Christ taught were those above. Nothing else

Is that what you believe? I don't see anyone calling Tithes foundational.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #1093  
Old 10-12-2014, 08:55 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

I love my little tithing buddies here on AFF!!!
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Go here on tithing----->

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

If it is God's will for your illness then why are you seeking medical attention to get rid of it?
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  #1094  
Old 10-12-2014, 09:55 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
I love my little tithing buddies here on AFF!!!
Those "buddies" are not going to answer question posed to them. But they will continue to demand we answer questions, ignore our answers pretending they didn't see them, and then taunt us for not answering knowing full well that we did.

And these are our pastors?
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  #1095  
Old 10-12-2014, 10:10 PM
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Lafon Lafon is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
If we used your logic then the ONLY doctrine Christ taught were those above. Nothing else

Is that what you believe? I don't see anyone calling Tithes foundational.
Yes, absolutely! I don't believe that Jesus taught anything that cannot be construed as being an element of at least one of these six principles of doctrine the writer of Hebrews enumerated.

Is it possible for the pro-tithers to place tithing within the principles of any one of the six doctrines the Hebrew writer listed? If not (and I doubt that such can be shown), then I find it difficult where anyone finds scriptural support to assert, or even suggest, that tithing is a fundamental (call it foundational if you want) part of God's covenant of grace.
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  #1096  
Old 10-12-2014, 10:22 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Hebrews 7

Matthew E. Narramore


Hebrews 7:8 has been taken out of context and misinterpreted. It is erroneously considered by some to be teaching that tithing is the customary way of giving in the New Covenant. This passage of scripture is part of a weighty and complex theological argument. The casual reader may not comprehend its meaning. It requires a careful study of the whole passage, verse by verse and word by word, to get a clear understanding of what is being said.

Hebrews 7:8 in the King James Version reads:

And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

This verse is absolutely not saying that the practice of tithing was being followed by the New Testament church at the time the book of Hebrews was written. It is also not talking about a practice of tithing that is supposed to be in effect permanently, throughout the church age. The phrase “here men that die receive tithes” is not talking about Christian ministers in the church, now or then. It is talking about priests at the temple in Jerusalem. The “he” that is being referred to by the phrase “but there he receiveth them” is Melchizedek, 4000 years ago, not Jesus.

This verse is incorrectly interpreted by some to say in effect:

And here (in the New Covenant), men that die (our pastors and other ministers) receive tithes (from born-again Christians); but there (up in heaven) he (Jesus) (is the one who actually) is receiving them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

This erroneous interpretation of the verse does not comprehend the theological argument that is being made in the passage. This misinterpretation is carelessly taken to be a scriptural proof that tithing is the will of God and the standard mode of operation in the New Covenant.

Objectively interpreted within its context, the verse is actually saying:

And here (in Israel at the time that Hebrews was written) men (who are priests under the Old Covenant) that (will eventually) die (and be succeeded by another mortal man after them) receive tithes (from those who are following the Law of Moses); but there (2000 years prior, during the time of Abraham in Genesis 14) he (Melchizedek) receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Scholars and theologians debate whether this language referring to Melchizedek's endless life is literal or symbolic. In either case the verse is not a reference to tithing in the New Covenant. “Here men that die receive tithes” is referring to Old Covenant priests not to New Covenant ministers. “There he receiveth them” is referring to Melchizedek in Genesis 14:18–20, not to Jesus up in heaven now. Nowhere in the verse is the New Covenant being referred to. This passage is not teaching that tithing is the way of giving that God has ordained for the New Covenant.

Consider some other translations of Hebrews 7:8:

Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually]. (The Amplified Bible. Copyright © Zondervan Publishing House 1965)

And here, on the one hand, men subject to death are receiving tithes, but there he [Melchisedec] receives them, concerning whom the testimony is that he is living. (The New Testament: An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest. Copyright © Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1961)

The “he” referred to in Hebrews 7:8 is the same “he” referred to in verse 6. That “he” is Melchizedek. That “he” is not referring to Jesus in the New Covenant. Melchizedek is the subject of verse 1 and is referred to in verses 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 15, 17, and 21.

Therefore the tithe mentioned in verse 8 is not a reference to tithing in the New Covenant. It is a reference to the tithe Abraham gave to Melchizedek. Even if Melchizedek was actually a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ, he was in a different relationship to Abraham than he is to the born-again man in the New Covenant. God's relationship with man changed drastically at the resurrection of Jesus. We don't relate to God like Abraham did.
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  #1097  
Old 10-13-2014, 07:44 AM
Esphes45 Esphes45 is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
Only Christ can build or purchase his church with or without man-made buildings. Maybe that's part of your dilemma, you're hung up on the church being a place instead of a people?
Funny light bulb joke tho
These pastors have become CEOs instead of evangelists. They want to build a big empire of churches to impress folks and tithes pay their salary. So if you take out the steady stream of income their business crumbles. It is sad because if these pastors were truly of God and had faith like they preach, they would not worry if tithes were given or not. They preach God will supply your need but they don't believe it enough to stop preaching tithes.
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Philippians 2:12 - ...Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

1 Corinthians 1:10 - Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith ...
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  #1098  
Old 10-13-2014, 07:54 AM
Esphes45 Esphes45 is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post

I really do not believe that false teachers will be saved.

I believe we must fix our beliefs right here and now on earth(whatever they may be) and repent of our "unapproachable" beliefs.

I have completely opened my beliefs on AFF to be scrutinized by others to SAVE MYSELF.

Then lets debate our doctrines rigorously, with an open mind. Ready to abandon the ones that are not scripturally valid.
We ALL must be saved brethren!!!
__________________
Philippians 2:12 - ...Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

1 Corinthians 1:10 - Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith ...
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  #1099  
Old 10-13-2014, 10:05 AM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Those "buddies" are not going to answer question posed to them. But they will continue to demand we answer questions, ignore our answers pretending they didn't see them, and then taunt us for not answering knowing full well that we did.

And these are our pastors?
For some reason we keep going to their buildings and support what we teach against. I'm not against buildings but we need to start a work and network with like minded people.

I was in the S.W. part of Louisiana a while back and everywhere we went there were Pentecostals. I made mention of this and was told most of them you see have no church home. I'm guessing legalism/forced tithing being the reason why.

I'm not a preacher and don't feel called to be one. I'm dealing with an illness and not sure how much longer I can function {being mobile}. Having said that I would like to relocate and assist in something that reflects my beliefs. No sense to keep putting time and treasure in orgs that will not line up.
__________________


http://www.paganchristianity.org


Go here on tithing----->

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

If it is God's will for your illness then why are you seeking medical attention to get rid of it?
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  #1100  
Old 10-13-2014, 02:03 PM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esphes45 View Post
These pastors have become CEOs instead of evangelists. They want to build a big empire of churches to impress folks and tithes pay their salary. So if you take out the steady stream of income their business crumbles. It is sad because if these pastors were truly of God and had faith like they preach, they would not worry if tithes were given or not. They preach God will supply your need but they don't believe it enough to stop preaching tithes.
NO tithe has ever paid a PENNY of my salary.

In over 30 years of ministry I have received ZERO, NONE, NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA from the ministry, not so much as a red Penny.

I did this to stop evil speaking and false accusations against my ministry.
and I happened to know some preachers who worked for a living and never took nothing from the ministry.

So be careful on what you say of us pro-tithe ministers.

and no I am not going to stop preaching tithes.
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