Was she the exception or the Rule ?
was it because there was not a Man ?
Why did Jesus only pick Men?
I believe Women can have authority in the secular world but as far as spiritual headship ?? can you show me an example of a woman pastor or Bishop in the bible ?
Having said that, I do think that the UPC should use more women and have more women preach and speak. and YES! in the general services! NOT just at the ladies day. I have no problem with women in ministry, just not in headship over a church.
Why did Paul send Phoebe, and not a man, to help that church he sent her to? Why did he instruct those men to do as she commanded of them?
Why do we feel that if there is no example in scripture, then God doesn't approve? If that were indeed the case, then all pastors and preachers who are from America need to bow out, because there is no example in scripture of Americans ever being called of God.
And if you think that God calls a woman because He can't find a man, then you don't give God much credit, do ya?
With God, ALL things are possible. If He calls a woman, it's because it's HIS WILL, not because He doesn't have a choice.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Aside from you having no scriptural support for that statement,
Easy H1, It's you who has no scriptures for your doctrine.
1Ti 2:12-14-16 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
The head of every woman is the man, therefore due to Adam being FIRST formed and being in the leadership position. Eve is NOT in a position of leadership, and she proved that very well when she was lead into deception by the Serpent. How did the Serpent deceive Eve? The Serpent placed himself in the position of the student. By a series of questions the Serpent caused Eve to lose out with God, and her husband totally lost his position because he allowed it. Eve became the teacher as any Rabbi will understand, students during the times of the ancients learned by questions.
The Socratic method of teaching is based of the students asking questions.
Hence Adam's reply to God when confronted with the issue of his taking of the tree.
Gen 3:12 "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."
Adam places blame on the woman who was the teacher to the Serpent, and after Serpent deceived Eve, she then gave her husband, and he was willing to partake. Adam's position was handed over when he harkened unto the voice of his wife. His authority usurped and his position removed within the garden.
"And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE thou hast HEARKENED unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
The Jews in the first century AD would of saw female leadership over men as not a good thing. Debora was a judge because Israel was in such a bad condition. The whole story of Barak and Debora is about how Israel was so back slid that they had a female kill their enemy.
The angel of Thyatira is rebuked in the book of Revelation because he suffered the woman Jezebel to teach. The same way Adam suffered a woman to teach, and by doing that the Serpent ruined them both.
Adam was not deceived, but allowed his wife to usurp his authority and hold the position of teacher.
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, BECAUSE thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to TEACH and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
I'd like to see you tell that to a woman judge, police officer, or manager at the local grocery store.
Sister when are policewomen and check out girls teaching the scriptures to men? I don't understand how the above applies to the BODY of Christ?
The woman judge, female police officer, and check out girl have to go to their husbands for Biblical answers. Wives submit unto your own husbands Eph 5:22Col 3:18 .
Jewish Christians would have never submitted unto female leadership as in the form of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. It really shows a lack of understanding of the scriptures to put such emphasis of Deborah's role in the book of Judges; because by doing this you contradict the rest of the scriptures. Also you're clearly missing what is being taught in that particular story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
Deborah had authority over men. Men, even priests, came to her for a word from the Lord. She judged ALL of Israel....ALL included the men too.
Was ISRAEL in good condition at that time? You are really missing the whole point of that story. Also if she was so important would you like to explain why Barak is mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11 and Deborah is forgotten?
"And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of BARAK, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"
This is the same Barak who wanted to take Deborah into battle, the same Barak who was told that BECAUSE he wanted to take a WOMAN into war that the victory would be given over to a FEAMALE.
"And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall NOT BE FOR THINE HONOUR; for the LORD shall sell Sisera INTO THE HAND OF A WOMAN. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh."
This was not a good thing, but an embaressment to Barak and to all of Israel.
"But there was a strong tower within the city, and thither fled all the men and women, and all they of the city, and shut it to them, and gat them up to the top of the tower. And Abimelech came unto the tower, and fought against it, and went hard unto the door of the tower to burn it with fire. And a CERTAIN WOMAN cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull. Then he called HASTILY unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A WOMAN SLEW HIM. And his young man thrust him through, and he died."
There is absolutely no way that the early first century Christians would of accepted female authority as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers over men.
"A sword is upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her; and THEY SHALL BECOME AS WOMEN: a sword is upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed."
"The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; THEY BECAME AS WOMEN: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken. One post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to meet another, to shew the king of Babylon that his city is taken at one end, And that the passages are stopped, and the reeds they have burned with fire, and the men of war are AFFRIGHTED."
Female leadership over men was unthinkable to the Jews in the time of Christ.
It was looked down upon for a man to act like a woman, as in being fearful and as a weaker vessel.
"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and WOMEN RULE OVER THEM. O my people, they which LEAD THEE cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
There is no such teaching for female leadership over men in the Bible, but a woman is to teach the younger women to be good wives and love their husbands.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Notice he didn't give scriptures, nor refute Deborah 'preaching' to men.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
I bet you couldn't count on one finger the number of preachers out there in the Western Hemisphere who preach that women are to be silent in the churches...
I actually would buy a ticket and pay to be in (especially an Apostolic church) a church where a pastor would, with conviction, preach exactly that.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, judge using one law, be judged by the Entire law...
People need to learn not only the biblical accounts of women ministers but our own Pentecostal history, which saw many women missionaries start works throughout the world that have continued to this day. The following is an excerpt from a book I read, which I found on the web:
Therefore, in appearing first to Mary Magdalene, Jesus was making a very important statement to His followers. It was a statement, perhaps, that they could not have grasped and retained by a mere lecture. This statement was further clarified and enhanced by the words which Jesus spoke to her on this occasion. When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene He gave her certain, specific instructions. Matthew 28:10 records His words to Mary: "Go and tell my brethren...." In other words, He sent her on a specific mission defined by the words, "Go and tell." Interestingly, the New Testament word apostle literally means "one who is sent" or "a sent one." Mary, therefore, was a "sent one" and as such received the first apostolic commission from the Risen Lord.
[I]In verses 3-5 of the same chapter, Paul refers to Priscilla and Aquila and the church that is in their house. Priscilla and Aquila are always mentioned together in Scripture which indicates that they worked and ministered together as a husband and wife team.This is confirmed by Acts 18:26 where both Priscilla and Aquila took Apollos aside and both explained to him the way of God more accurately. Many commentators feel that because, in the Greek, Priscilla is always mentioned first, that she was the spiritually gifted one and probably the pastor of the church that was in their home. Priscilla knew that she was called to "Go and Tell."
In verse 7 of the same chapter, Paul sends greetings to Andronicus and Junia who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a feminine name and so we have here a woman who is recognized by Paul as an apostle. We thus see that in the New Testament church, women as well as men functioned as apostles. Junia, as "a sent one" had, like Mary, been commissioned by the Lord to "Go and Tell." In Philippians 4:3, Paul urges the church at Philippi to help those women [Euodia and Syntyche] who labored with me in the gospel. The word "labor," which Paul uses here, refers to the exertion and effort that is required in preaching and teaching. This reminds us of the admonition of Jesus in Matthew 9:38 for His disciples to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send out laborers into His harvest. Also note that Paul says that these women labored "with" him, not under him./I]
Go and Tell! God's Word to Women in the 21st Century
by Eddie L. Hyatt, D.Min., M.Div., M.A.
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Isaiah 53:5: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."(KJV)
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." Dwight L. Moody
People need to learn not only the biblical accounts of women ministers but our own Pentecostal history, which saw many women missionaries start works throughout the world that have continued to this day. The following is an excerpt from a book I read, which I found on the web:
I'm so sorry but American Pentecostal history doesn't dictate Biblical truth.
The Bible's right and somebody's wrong. Let's stick with chapter and verse and we can shut the mouths of the atheist, and non-believer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenbyone
Therefore, in appearing first to Mary Magdalene, Jesus was making a very important statement to His followers.
This does not make Mary Magdalene a minister, or teacher over men.
Let's not rabbit trail, I'm not coming against women being a part of the body to witness of God and His power. I'm just presenting the argument that no woman can hold office of ministerial authority over married men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenbyone
It was a statement, perhaps, that they could not have grasped and retained by a mere lecture. This statement was further clarified and enhanced by the words which Jesus spoke to her on this occasion. When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene He gave her certain, specific instructions. Matthew 28:10 records His words to Mary: "Go and tell my brethren...." In other words, He sent her on a specific mission defined by the words, "Go and tell." Interestingly, the New Testament word apostle literally means "one who is sent" or "a sent one." Mary, therefore, was a "sent one" and as such received the first apostolic commission from the Risen Lord.
You see the go and REPORT to the MEN was the main thing that needed to be done. Again does this show authority over the 12 foundational apostles?
Hardly the case, but what Mary was told to do was report that Jesus had risen. My question is how many female apostles do we find in the first century? We find none, also what Jewish Christian man would of sat at the feet of a woman? Please do your own research into just the thought of a first century Jewish man sitting at the feet of a woman!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenbyone
[I]In verses 3-5 of the same chapter, Paul refers to Priscilla and Aquila and the church that is in their house. Priscilla and Aquila are always mentioned together in Scripture which indicates that they worked and ministered together as a husband and wife team.This is confirmed by Acts 18:26 where both Priscilla and Aquila took Apollos aside and both explained to him the way of God more accurately. Many commentators feel that because, in the Greek, Priscilla is always mentioned first, that she was the spiritually gifted one and probably the pastor of the church that was in their home. Priscilla knew that she was called to "Go and Tell."
Priscilla the more spiritual? Can we agree that this would be pure speculation on the prat of the commentators? This was a husband and wife team, but in keeping with the rest of the scriptures, her husband was the one in charge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenbyone
In verse 7 of the same chapter, Paul sends greetings to Andronicus and Junia who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a feminine name and so we have here a woman who is recognized by Paul as an apostle. We thus see that in the New Testament church, women as well as men functioned as apostles. Junia, as "a sent one" had, like Mary, been commissioned by the Lord to "Go and Tell." In Philippians 4:3, Paul urges the church at Philippi to help those women [Euodia and Syntyche] who labored with me in the gospel. The word "labor," which Paul uses here, refers to the exertion and effort that is required in preaching and teaching. This reminds us of the admonition of Jesus in Matthew 9:38 for His disciples to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send out laborers into His harvest. Also note that Paul says that these women labored "with" him, not under him./I]
Most commentators will agree that it would be pure speculation to say that Junias was an apostle, but I must say that in the original Greek the name is masculine. Also in the early first century to the late forth century the name Junias was more popular than its feminine counterpart.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Whether a woman should pastor or not you decide but this woman Willia [ Bill ] Peters pastored in eastern Oklahoma for over 40 years and quite successfully. She brought my grandparents to the LORD and 5 generations of our family owe her a great debt!
Why do we care if a woman is preaching the Gospel? Is it because we want to control people? Let them preach. If you don't want to listen, don't go. But why try to hinder? I don't have time to fight about this. Jesus is coming and we need to get the gospel out.
And this is the problem with your doctrine. The head of your wife is the man, or A man, being you?
Do you believe all men are over your wife? If so, I'm glad I'm not your wife. If not, then how do you think that a woman preacher has authority over every man just because she's preaching?
I hear people preach all the time, both men and women, but they do not have authority over me, only God, and it's His word and His authority they are operating under.
But you split up scripture, believing that it's ok for women to share the Word with men as long as she isn't in the pulpit doing it, but as I said, you have NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for that claim you and others have made. In addition, when it came to Deborah, you made excuses as to her calling and duties instead of just admitting that God used a woman to do what you consider a man's work!
There are none so blind and those who will not see.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
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