Dear Kansas Preacher,

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

At this point, I plan to remain independent. I am not interested in joining anything else.

I appreciate your prayers, as this is not an easy thing for me. I feel like 35 years of my life have been stripped from me. However, I will go on. Again, thanks for the prayers. I sincerely need them.

I'm not just saying this. I promise to pray for you and your family. A transitional time as this is a time that you need extra support and encouragement. This sounds so simple - but is sometimes hard to do: Try not to look to the right or left. Stay focused and look only to Him.

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

It is not JUST the "TV thing." As I stated elsewhere, this was just the "last straw" for me. It was a BIG issue to me BEFORE I became licensed. It remains a BIG issue. However, it is not the ONLY issue. I know that no one is forcing me out in a literal sense. As I've said before, so say I now again, this is NOT a "knee-jerk reaction." I've had an entire year to decide how I would deal with it. This is the decision I have reached, and I believe it to be best for me and the church I pastor.

KP I've read most of this thread. I know that you have prayerfully sought the face of God and recieved council from elders in your life. I have also seen you go through firey trials in years gone by and seen the Hand of God on your life. I have prayed for you many times over the years and will continue to do so. Whatever your decision God is with you. Being affiliated with the UPC for 22 years I do have an understanding of your feelings. I pray God will direct your steps for you, your family and your church and that an unprecedented revial will explode in your church and city.

Godspeed my dear friend.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Change is nothing to fear, rather welcomed and embraced, as long as it is proper change. It is one thing to accommodate change that enhances and propels us in the right direction, it is quite another to embellish change that diverts us from our course and or reverses our direction.

Right and that hasn't happened here. However if the two sides could stop fighting for control and make the org something that facilitates spreading the goodnews rather than something that seeks to control it's members, we might have come up with better resolutions... That #3 resolution is absurd. The TV thing needs to still make a statement that we are not against the TV as a media, but we are against the worldly content that is on TV, just as we are against the worldly content that is on the internet

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule placed to maintain Godly principle.

See that is where the real problem lies...this idea that a religious legalistic law can protect anyone. What the saints needed was pastors to educate them HOW to be spiritually discerning and to preach against the junk that is in the world, on TV, on the Internet, on radio etc etc...instead what we got was a one size fits all "Don't own a TV or you are going to hell" attitude. The sheep are not stupid and the ones that are are probably kept that way by a lack of depth in teaching and Pastoring

A principle is not "you can't own a TV...TV is evil" that's a law. A principle follows more along the lines of giving people guidelines they can use to make their own decisions through the word of God and prayer, instead of having these other men thing for them. Particularly since a lot of time that law was enforced by "I am the Pastor, I say so. If you don't comply you can't be in this fellowship" attitudes.

Owning a TV is not worldly. Watching worldly movies is worldly. Owning a PC and being on the internet is not worldly...watching or partaking of worldly stuff ON the internet is worldly

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by CC1

Perhaps when the dust settles this will be best for everyone involved as you can't have an organization being pulled in two different directions.

Those who freak out at image magnification on video screens at conferences and the thought of utilizing technology in outreach have been unhappy for a very long time (as Kansas Preacher says he has been and I am sure many more).

The Kansas contingent of UPC has been so conservative he will be the second DS in modern times to go from heading up the UPC in his district / state to ditching it.

If the UPC is smart they will recruit some moderates to go into Kansas and start Home Missions churches in the major urban areas and larger towns to build a UPC presence there that will be moderate enough to not be ditching the Mothership every few years because they think it is too lib.

I find it ironic and rather funny that Kansas Preacher has stated that the previous bunch that left don't have much to do with him because he didn't leave when they did. The ultra cons don't even get along with each other!

No joke, I was a member a UC church in the Dallas area over thirty years ago, even though UPC distrusted and criticized every other UPC church in the area. "Yeah, you can go over there, but you will be leaving the cloud and the fire." And that was the attitude that was promoted. Oh, btw KP was a member of that church at the same time, so I can understand why he would be leaving. My leaving was precipitated to a great extent by the attitudes that were shown while at this church, especially during the HM and Kenneth Phillips oustings. This church has had its problems and has all but dried up since. These self-centered attitudes will not promote growth or revival or the spreading of the gospel. I'm am not referring to Kansas Preacher, since I have not seen nor heard anything from him for about thirty years until this forum, speaking of the UC world in general.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by philjones

Yep! I believe you are right. If you don't believe anything is right or anything is wrong you can get along with any one. Thus, no division!

You are brilliant... brilliant!

(TICSO)

Is "division" ever justified within the body of Christ? Even among those who think they are right and are dividing over issues that are petty and trivial? Those who would divide over little things are themselves as little as the things they are dividing over.... Sir, you know it's true that there are divisions among the conservatives over these little things. Perhaps your sarcastic response is a result of your own acknowledging that what I stated was true. And instead of addressing the sad state of conservative pentecost, you'd rather make light of the issue as to divert attention away from it. I don't think it's necessarily the con's convictions of what is right or wrong. Either something is right or it's not, or either it's wrong or it's not. The problem for many cons seems to be determining whether something really is right or wrong or not. They truly believe that things are "wrong" that there is nothing at all wrong with them... and they truly think they are "right" and many have the worst attitudes towards their own brothers in Christ, AND the lost world.

Division is not justified within the body of Christ, even if it presents itself in the guise of "convtiction" and "right and wrong". There are things that are always right, and there are things that are always wrong, and those things are specifically addressed by God in his Word. But men have exalted their own traditions to the neglecting of the wieghtier matters, judgment, faith, and mercy... YES, these you should have done, and not leave the other undone. But in doing so, there is never a justification to preclude the specific instructions to "speak the same thing, teach the same thing, be of the same mind... that there be no divisions among you, that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and judgment" etc. etc... I suggest here that someone who has a firm "conviction" of "right and wrong", but does not have a firm conviction of "unity" are as bad off as those who have "unity", but do not stand for anything. The propensity of cons to divide over trivial issues is as big of a grievance as the libs who want to allow anything and everything. IMO... maybe next time Bro. Jones, you will take my post a little more seriously... I would hope so. Thanks.

BTW, thank you for commenting on my brilliance, I know you were trying to be facetious, but your comment was true nonetheless.

[CC1]

Kansas Preacher,

While I think leaving over advertising or preaching on TV is absurd and illogical not to mention not biblical, I do understand your thought paradigm and that within it this is a big deal.

As I stated in my earlier post I think there has been a facade of "unity" for years now that perhaps this resolution will expose.

Both the ultra cons and the mods / libs will be happier and more productive with true unity. You will have unity with the ultra con GIB, AMF, etc brethern and the UPC can have a more coherent cohesive direction as they attempt to join the 20th century now that we are in the 21st century.

You ultra cons probably saw the writing on the wall when the Pentecostal Herald dropped that 1950's cursive font and started having those worldy color pictures instead of black and white ones!

Once you are over the initial emotional stresss of leaving the fellowship you have spent so many years in I would imagine you will be less stressed and happier.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See that is where the real problem lies...this idea that a religious legalistic law can protect anyone. What the saints needed was pastors to educate them HOW to be spiritually discerning and to preach against the junk that is in the world, on TV, on the Internet, on radio etc etc...instead what we got was a one size fits all "Don't own a TV or you are going to hell" attitude. The sheep are not stupid and the ones that are are probably kept that way by a lack of depth in teaching and Pastoring

A principle is not "you can't own a TV...TV is evil" that's a law. A principle follows more along the lines of giving people guidelines they can use to make their own decisions through the word of God and prayer, instead of having these other men thing for them. Particularly since a lot of time that law was enforced by "I am the Pastor, I say so. If you don't comply you can't be in this fellowship" attitudes.

Owning a TV is not worldly. Watching worldly movies is worldly. Owning a PC and being on the internet is not worldly...watching or partaking of worldly stuff ON the internet is worldly

Well said!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by CC1

Kansas Preacher,

While I think leaving over advertising or preaching on TV is absurd and illogical not to mention not biblical, I do understand your thought paradigm and that within it this is a big deal.

As I stated in my earlier post I think there has been a facade of "unity" for years now that perhaps this resolution will expose.

Both the ultra cons and the mods / libs will be happier and more productive with true unity. You will have unity with the ultra con GIB, AMF, etc brethern and the UPC can have a more coherent cohesive direction as they attempt to join the 20th century now that we are in the 21st century.

You ultra cons probably saw the writing on the wall when the Pentecostal Herald dropped that 1950's cursive font and started having those worldy color pictures instead of black and white ones!

Once you are over the initial emotional stresss of leaving the fellowship you have spent so many years in I would imagine you will be less stressed and happier.