Is the Father the Son?

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

Sorry. It's been fun. I'll check back in later, but I've GOT to run.

It's been enjoyable, to say the least. I enjoy this dialog. Feel free to PM me for my email address. I want to continue this discussion.

who me?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

The question was written in the simplest way possible.

Here is the question again.. pay close attention to what I asked:

And I repeat, please pay attention, the question is flawed because it assumes something that is NOT true.

Please noticed that I worded it....according to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father.

No, you said according to the Oneness doctrine jesus is Father and the opposte or the converse question is but is the Father the Son. That question leads to the conclusion that what you mean by "jesus is the Father" is "The Son is the Father". Thus you question is a logical fallacy. When OPs say "Jesus is the Father" they are NOT saying "The Son is the Father"

Jesus is the Son of God. Do you agree or disagree?

Are you just trying to to see the point? When OPs say Jesus is the Father they are NOT saying "Jesus is God"...may I ask...is Jesus God? Is the Son God? Yes in OP theology Jesus is the Son, but also Jesus is the Father. HOW is Jesus both? Because when OPs are saying that they are speaking of the Person of Jesus who has those two distinct roles or modes

If Jesus is the Son, and you also claim that He is the Father, then is the Father the Son? Very simple and straight forward question.

Ok, well God has revealed Himself as Father and as Son....does that make Father the Son? Trinitarians have said Father is Yahweh and Son is Yahweh...does that make Father the Son? and you complain about what Oneness do with Trinitarian doctrine. This is why we only argue.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

And if we take Isa. 9:6, according to your translation, it says that the Son is the Father. This statement has already has been rejected by a Oneness pastor in this thread already. So, according to you and the verse you posted... is the Son the Father?

Believer, Did you read my response to your initial post? I already answered your question Is the Son the Father in that post.

The same God who manifests himself as the Father also manifested himself as the Son.

I also said you are misapplying the terms, Father and Son, to different ways God has revealed himself (manifestations)

As for Isa 9:6, it says what is says and is very clear to me. The Son shall be called the Everlasting Father, the Mighty God. Please know that the Son is a human being, God with us. The Son is a different mode of existence of God. Here is my initial response in which I made a distinction between the manifestation of God as Father and as Son which you failed to acknowledge in your question to me:

Isaiah 9:6 declares the Son shall be called the everlasting Father, the mighty God. I have no problem saying the Son is the Father manifest in the flesh. or the same God who is called the Father is also called the Son yet in a different mode of existence

It doesn't matter to me if someone disagrees with me whether it is a Trinitarian, or Oneness, or a pastor, or a theologian. If they can prove I'm wrong with scriptures then I'll concede to an incorrect understanding.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

What we mean when we say "person"

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).
God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there is more than one "person" in the Godhead.

http://www.carm.org/oneness/3persons.htm

We don't have to play by CARM's definition of person. Please go to the Bible and elucidate the definition of person from the scriptures.

But let's take CARM's definition and see if we find that the Trinity is in fact tritheism.

A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose. A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.

If each person of the Trinity has his own will then there are three Gods. They can each independently decide what to do and therefore there is the possibility of disagreement. One being who is called God disagreeing within himself is inconsistent and ridiculous.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

But your flesh doesn't LOVE your spirit and talk to it. You flesh never tells your spirit to glory it with the glory it had with it before the world was. Basically your flesh and your spirit don't have a loving relationship with each other. And your spirit never sent your flesh into the world!

Believer,

Did Kansas Preacher misquote you when he quoted that you wrote this in a prior post?

Originally Posted by Believer
If the Father isn't the Son, then you have two "persons." You have the Father and the Son, and neither is the other.

You're right, my spirit is not my flesh, but my spirit and my flesh is one person...ME.

It appears you are waffling on your definition of a human person.

[mizpeh]

Strawman alert!!!

This is not a strawman! An unique identity can say "I". Explain how each person can say "I" and then God as a whole can say "I"?

Do you need examples from the scriptures?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

If the Father is NOT the Son, then the Father is not the same Person as the Son. The Son prays, eats, sleeps, laughs, talks. If this isn't the Father, then you have more than one "person." And, according to John, the Word (who is God) became flesh, He didn't simply indwell the flesh.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Please notice it doesn't say the Word indwelled, but actually became flesh and dwelt among us.




What we mean when we say "person"

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).
God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there is more than one "person" in the Godhead.

http://www.carm.org/oneness/3persons.htm

Based on what you posted here and I embolded, can you comment on these quotes and explain them in relation to this post from CARM where will is an attribte of Person and not nature. Also, how many minds did the Son have? How many minds does the Trinity have? Are three three minds and wills or just one?

The heresy that there is only one will in in the incarnate Christ is called monothelitism and arose from the Monophysite heresy (which said that there was only one nature in Christ). Christ distinguishes his will from that of his Father in John 6:38, Matt 26:39, etc. Christ's relationship of obedience to the Father only makes sense if Christ has a human will.

Athanasius said in his treatise on the Incarnation in 365 AD, "And when [Christ] says, "Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from Me; yet, not My will be done, but Yours;" and "the spirit is ready, but the flesh is weak," He gives evidence therein of two wills, the one human, which is of the flesh, and the other divine, which is of God. That which is human, because of the weakness of the flesh, shrinks from suffering. That, however, which is divine, is ready. Then too, Peter, hearing about the passion, says, "Cheer up, Lord;" but the Lord, chiding him, says, "Get behind me Satan; you are a scandal to Me, because you are mindful not of the things of God but of the things of men." This too, then, is to be understood in the suffering; but being God and, in accord with the divine substance, really being not subject to suffering, He readily accepts suffering and death" (Quotation from Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens). The Council of Chalcedon said, "Similarly we promulgate, according to the teaching of the Holy Fathers, that in Him are also two natural wills and two natural modes of working, unseparated, untransformed, undivided, unmixed; and these two natural wills are not opposed to each other as the impious heretics maintained." (Quoted from Ludwig Ott, "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma," Denzinger 291)
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine...t/monothel.htm

Monothelitism (a Greek loanword meaning "one will") is a particular teaching about how the divine and human relate in the person of Jesus, known as a Christological doctrine. Specifically, Monothelitism teaches that Jesus Christ had two natures but only one will. This is contrary to the orthodox interpretation of Christology, which teaches that Jesus Christ has two wills (human and divine) corresponding to his two natures. Monothelitism is a development of the Monophysite position in the Christological debates. It enjoyed considerable support in the 7th century before being rejected as heretical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monothelitism

[mizpeh]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Believer

The actual Greek is "God is Spirit." Because God is Spirit we are to worship God in spirit and truth. This verse is not telling us that God is one "person." All Trinitarians agree with this verse.

If you take this verse in context, Jesus is saying God is the Father.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Verse 23 and 24 equate God with the Father, the one who must be worshipped in Spirit and in truth. The one who is a Spirit or spirit whichever you prefer.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

And I repeat, please pay attention, the question is flawed because it assumes something that is NOT true.

What is not true?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No, you said according to the Oneness doctrine jesus is Father and the opposte or the converse question is but is the Father the Son. That question leads to the conclusion that what you mean by "jesus is the Father" is "The Son is the Father". Thus you question is a logical fallacy. When OPs say "Jesus is the Father" they are NOT saying "The Son is the Father"

If Jesus is also the Father, and the Son, but the Father (who is Jesus) is not the Son, then there appears to be a contradiction. If I understand this right, the Father really didn't become flesh, He only indwells the Son?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Are you just trying to to see the point? When OPs say Jesus is the Father they are NOT saying "Jesus is God"...may I ask...is Jesus God? Is the Son God? Yes in OP theology Jesus is the Son, but also Jesus is the Father. HOW is Jesus both? Because when OPs are saying that they are speaking of the Person of Jesus who has those two distinct roles or modes

Oh, so Jesus is not God? Yikes! What did Jesus (the Son) say about this?

Unless you believe that I AM [egō eimi] you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

Jesus is very much God, and all of our salvation rests in that fact.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Ok, well God has revealed Himself as Father and as Son....does that make Father the Son? Trinitarians have said Father is Yahweh and Son is Yahweh...does that make Father the Son? and you complain about what Oneness do with Trinitarian doctrine. This is why we only argue.

You just contradicted yourself. If you say that Jesus is the Father (who is God) and also reveals Himself as the Son, then you have the Father who is God, (remember, the Father is not the Son) and the Son who is God, you have two distinct "persons" who are the same God.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How is that any different KP from your answer ... He said the I Am ... you said he who is ...

If he wants he could answer you w/ your own words:

He who IS the Father IS God!
He who IS the Son IS God!
He who IS the Holy Spirit IS God!

LOL, Dan, your more Trinitarian than Believer is!!!!!