Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[Sam]

From the UPC Articles of Faith:
-----------------------------------
REPENTANCE

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).
John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized
it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart,
change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.

Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached
in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

-----------------------

Sounds like "officially" justification, pardon, and forgiveness happen at repentance. I don't know how closely the current article of faith on repentance resembles the original one in 1945. The one above is, I think, the way the Manual currently reads. Would one of you who have a current UPC Manual check that out and let us know if that is how the article on repentance currently reads?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

During the time they were dropping like flies?

Well, the ones that died were the generation that came out of Egypt and they were circumcised. I think this circumcision here in Joshua 5 applies to all those who were born during the 40 years in the wilderness.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Sam

Well, the ones that died were the generation that came out of Egypt and they were circumcised. I think this circumcision here in Joshua 5 applies to all those who were born during the 40 years in the wilderness.

The point was that these folks had forsaken the covenant, and even though God continued to provide, they were not able to get the promise.

[Felicity]

Lessee.......

Seagravian Justification

Epleyan Justification

What was the third Dan?

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sam

From the UPC Articles of Faith:
-----------------------------------
REPENTANCE

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).
John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized
it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart,
change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.

Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached
in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

-----------------------

Sounds like "officially" justification, pardon, and forgiveness happen at repentance. I don't know how closely the current article of faith on repentance resembles the original one in 1945. The one above is, I think, the way the Manual currently reads. Would one of you who have a current UPC Manual check that out and let us know if that is how the article on repentance currently reads?

Sam:

The Justification aspect was recently diced around at the 2003 Symposium between David Bernard (author, in large part, of the AOF) and Daniel Seagraves. I believe that it will soon be reworded. Also, the text above does not, IMO, seem to say that Justification occurs at repentance. It explicitly says, as does Scripture, that Justification is by faith.

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Lessee.......

Seagravian Justification

Epleyan Justification

What was the third Dan?

Bernardian.

[JN Anderson]

Justification:

The doctrine of Justification knows at least two views (both views were presented at the 2003 UGST Symposium) in the UPC. Dr. Bernard holds the most prominent view (Justification after the entire New Birth) and then there is the view of Dr. Segraves (Justification at the point of faith). The latter view is the one I hold. I would caution my friends and enemies, at this point however, that this view does not do violence to what we currently believe about the New Birth--for the most part (some people have some odd ideas).

In Genesis 15:5-6 Abraham’s only response to God’s promise, at this point, was that "he believed in the LORD." The verb translated "believed," indicates that Abraham trusted God to keep His promise. Actually no other response was expected or possible at this point. Although the genuineness of Abraham’s faith was later demonstrated, in a tangible way, as he offered Isaac, it serves Paul’s purpose to focus on the fact that Abraham was justified apart from and prior to works (the same example is given of David in Romans 4:5-8). I believe that, although faith results in obedience to God’s commands, justification occurs at the point of faith.

Genesis 15:6 indicates that because Abraham trusted in the LORD, God imputed or reckoned righteousness to Him. Because Abraham trusted God, he had a relationship with God. Genesis 15:6 says nothing about Abraham’s personal righteousness; it does not suggest that righteousness was imparted to him so that he was regenerated. In fact, according to Paul, just the opposite was the case: God “justifies the ungodly” (Romans 4:5). The only possible meaning for this is that when ungodly persons put their trust in God, their “faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5).

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

Bernardian.

Thank you sir.

What do you think of these 3 new designations Sab?

[JN Anderson]

Justification:

The doctrine of Justification knows at least two views (both views were presented at the 2003 UGST Symposium) in the UPC. Dr. Bernard holds the most prominent view (Justification is the experience of salvation or equal to salvation) and then there is the second--the view of Dr. Segraves (Justification at the point of faith). The latter view is the one I hold. I would caution my friends and enemies, at this point however, that this view does not do violence to what we currently believe about the New Birth--for the most part (some people have some odd ideas).

In Genesis 15:5-6 Abraham’s only response to God’s promise, at that point, was that "he believed in the LORD." The verb translated "believed," indicates that Abraham trusted God to keep His promise. Actually no other response was even expected at that point. Although the genuineness of Abraham’s faith was later demonstrated, in a tangible way, as he offered Isaac, it serves Paul’s purpose to focus on the fact that Abraham was justified apart from and prior to works (the same example is given of David in Romans 4:5-8). I believe that, although faith results in obedience to God’s commands, justification occurs at the point of faith.

Genesis 15:6 indicates that because Abraham trusted in the LORD, God imputed or reckoned righteousness to Him. Because Abraham trusted God, he had a relationship with God. Genesis 15:6 says nothing about Abraham’s personal righteousness; it does not suggest that righteousness was imparted to him so that he was regenerated. In fact, according to Paul, just the opposite was the case: God “justifies the ungodly” (Romans 4:5). The only possible meaning for this is that when ungodly persons put their trust in God, their “faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5).

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Thank you sir.

What do you think of these 3 new designations Sab?

In the end I believe much of this is semantics. I do not like the designations however because I am of the view that Justification occurs at the point of faith and not, as Bernard feels, at the full demonstration of saving faith (i.e. New Birth fully attained). The bible explicitly says:

Romans 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV (c.f. Genesis 15:6)