Should we still observe the sabbath?

[loran adkins]

The question has been ask whether we are to follow the old testament ten commandments, I believe yes we are. But not in the way or frame of mind that they have been taught. I know that does not seem to make much since. But God said that he would wright the law on our hearts, in the new covenant. In other words when we are christian we should know what is right and wrong without someone telling us.

In other words, to love our neighbors as ourselves in inclusive of all the ten commandments.

Mat 22:34.. But hearing that He had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees were gathered together...
Mat 22:35.. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying,..
Mat 22:36.. Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?..
Mat 22:37.. Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind...
Mat 22:38.. This is the first and great commandment...
Mat 22:39.. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself...
Mat 22:40.. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets...

To be more specific, to love our neighbor as our self means that we are not to covet, murder, steal, or any of the other things that the ten commandments teach us not to do.

Which then brings us to the sabbath day, the people, or I should say the leaders had taken to ten commandments and added to them rules that would make sure that they would not miss the mark and fail to meet the the requirements of the law of God. Jesus came and by example showed us that we did not have to be so specific, but we needed to learn what the spirit of the law was. We are instructed to work six days and then have a day of rest, but Jesus showed us by example that we don't have to be so regimented as the Pharisee instructed.
To be under the new covenant means that we no longer offer animal sacrifices or go to the temple as Jesus is the fulfillment of that part of the law. To take this one step further, we no longer have the temple as the temple was represented as the dwelling place of God on earth, and now we are the temple of God, as God dwells in us “we are the temple of God.”

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

The question has been ask whether we are to follow the old testament ten commandments, I believe yes we are. But not in the way or frame of mind that they have been taught. I know that does not seem to make much since. But God said that he would wright the law on our hearts, in the new covenant. In other words when we are christian we should know what is right and wrong without someone telling us.

In other words, to love our neighbors as ourselves in inclusive of all the ten commandments.

Mat 22:34.. But hearing that He had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees were gathered together...
Mat 22:35.. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying,..
Mat 22:36.. Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?..
Mat 22:37.. Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind...
Mat 22:38.. This is the first and great commandment...
Mat 22:39.. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself...
Mat 22:40.. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets...

To be more specific, to love our neighbor as our self means that we are not to covet, murder, steal, or any of the other things that the ten commandments teach us not to do.

Which then brings us to the sabbath day, the people, or I should say the leaders had taken to ten commandments and added to them rules that would make sure that they would not miss the mark and fail to meet the the requirements of the law of God. Jesus came and by example showed us that we did not have to be so specific, but we needed to learn what the spirit of the law was. We are instructed to work six days and then have a day of rest, but Jesus showed us by example that we don't have to be so regimented as the Pharisee instructed.
To be under the new covenant means that we no longer offer animal sacrifices or go to the temple as Jesus is the fulfillment of that part of the law. To take this one step further, we no longer have the temple as the temple was represented as the dwelling place of God on earth, and now we are the temple of God, as God dwells in us “we are the temple of God.”

I pretty much agree with this, except I would say we are not commanded to "work 6 days and take a day off", but to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. It is a very specific day that anyone can find on a regular calendar.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

How we are to observe the Sabbath day is the question really.

The question is plainly answered in the Scripture. It's not complicated!

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Matthew 12:10-12 KJV
And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. [11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? [12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The question is plainly answered in the Scripture. It's not complicated!

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Matthew 12:10-12 KJV
And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. [11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? [12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Thank you I knew you would come back and answer the statement

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Galatians 4:21-31
21......Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

and shows that we are the sons of Abraham by the freewoman
22......For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23......But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24......Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25......For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26......But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27......For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28......Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29......But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30......Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31......So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

This is pretty clear to me, the law at mount sinai represented bondage, and those that are under bondage shall not be heir with those of the free woman.

Amen, that is the same BONDAGE in the same context that we read in the same chapter as noted here:

Galatians 4:2-3
(2).. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
(3).. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:


And that bondage includes:

Galatians 4:9-10
(9).. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(10).. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gentiles in that day had come to Judaism and then to Christianity in many cases, like Cornelius.

And the tutors and governors that were bondage were shown to be the LAW.

Galatians 3:24-25
(24).. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25).. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen, that is the same BONDAGE in the same context that we read in the same chapter as noted here:

Galatians 4:2-3
(2).. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
(3).. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:


And that bondage includes:

Galatians 4:9-10
(9).. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(10).. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gentiles in that day had come to Judaism and then to Christianity in many cases, like Cornelius.

And the tutors and governors that were bondage were shown to be the LAW.

Galatians 3:24-25
(24).. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(25).. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

1. The Galatians were not proselyte Jews who became Christians:
Galatians 4:8-9 KJV
Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. [9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

2. Cornelius wasn't a Jew either, but a God fearing Gentile:

Acts 10:1-2 KJV
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, [2] A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Acts 10:28 KJV
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 10:44-45 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1-3 KJV
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. [2] And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, [3] Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Acts 11:18 KJV
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

3. "Days and months and times and years" is NEVER used in Scripture to refer to God's Divine calendar, nor is it used in Jewish literature to describe the Divine Biblical calendar. The Biblical phrase is "holy days, new moons, and sabbath days" or some variation thereof. That is also the formula used in Jewish literature of the time to describe or refer to the sacred calendar. The phrase "days, months, times, and years" is unmistakably referring to a pagan calendar. This is further supported by the fact the Galatians (who had converted to Christ from paganism) were RETURNING to paganism as evidenced by their use of pagan time keeping systems.

4. This pagan calendar is associated with "the weak and beggarly elements" which is a phrase well known in the first century as referring to the elemental powers thought to direct and influence the affairs of men. Pagan calendars were devoted to these elemental powers (as evidenced in their survival in the modern Gregorian calendar with days and months assigned to various gods, equinoxes and solstices, the four seasons and their spans, etc). The Galatians were RETURNING to paganism, its superstitions, and its astrological time keeping systems.

If anyone wants to actually study the exegetical and historical data regarding what was going on in Galatia, I highly recommend "Pagan and Judeo-Christian Time-Keeping Schemes in Gal 4.10 and Col 2.16" by prof. Troy Martin. It can be found online but you will likely need a Cambridge pass or other institutional (seminary) pass, although at one time it was available as a pdf somewhere.

5. WHATEVER Paul was arguing for and/or against, he most assuredly was NOT arguing against faithful obedience to and performance of the obligations mandated by commandments of God (see Romans 2, 6, 7, and 8 for example). Otherwise he is a hypocrite and preaches 1 thing in Rome and the OPPOSITE in Galatia.

Remember:

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The issue in Galatia was NOT "should we obey God" or "should we follow the Bible". Rather, it was "must gentiles be circumcised in order to be part of the church of God". It was the issue of the basis of JUSTIFICATION being either grace or law, faith or works. NOT whether or not Christians should obey the commandments of God.

If that latter is correct, and the antisabbatarian view is right, then it is WRONG FOR CHRISTIANS TO OBEY GOD, FOLLOW THE BIBLE, OR DO WHAT GOD COMMANDED. The average antisabbatarian of course never follows their own reasoning out to its logical and natural conclusions, for obvious reasons, but that is in fact what is being argued by them (albeit unawares).

[good samaritan]

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I know this will be dismissed or explained away, but here it is anyways.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I know this will be dismissed or explained away, but here it is anyways.

It is dismissed and explained away by those who refuse to live by the command of God and who prefer instead to make it up as they go and do their own thing "in Jesus' name".

We can address that passage if you want, but only after you have actually addressed everything else that has been presented to you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1. The Galatians were not proselyte Jews who became Christians:
Galatians 4:8-9 KJV
Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. [9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
2. Cornelius wasn't a Jew either, but a God fearing Gentile:

He was a gentile fearing the God of the Old testament. His people were in idolatry and he left that to honour the God of Israel. He was not a Jew.


And the BODNAGE of paganism was similar tot eh bondage of Old Covenant life, which was a bondage to hold Jews under the PRIUSON WARDEN of Law until Jesus came. So gentiles who were not proselytes were leaving bondage to idols to go into bondage of law and the same general bondage was in both.

Because schoolmastery was noted to be LAW shutting up in a bondage the adherents til Christ should come. that is the context of Gal 4, next chapter, and the tutors and governors of LAW just as the bondage in Hagar's example speaks strictly of the bondage of the old covenant as Good Samaritan noted.

When the law was bondage in chapter 3 and the Old covenant was Hagar and a gendering to bondage later in chapter 4 and all that is sandwiched between the two is a bondage that gentiles were under, we know what that bondage was about. LAW.

Acts 10:1-2 KJV
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, [2] A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Acts 10:28 KJV
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 10:44-45 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1-3 KJV
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. [2] And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, [3] Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Acts 11:18 KJV
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.[
/qupte[]
I never said Cornelius was a Jew. He was a gentile in every sense of the word. BUT HE FEARED the Old Covenant God. Other gentiles actually became proselytes and became Jews, but my point was that GENTILES were involved in the bondage of law that Paul said was for the JEWS ALONE until Jesus came, when Paul wrote to gentiles in the church at Galatia.

3. "Days and months and times and years" is NEVER used in Scripture to refer to God's Divine calendar, nor is it used in Jewish literature to describe the Divine Biblical calendar.

That EXACT PHRASE may not have been used, but the exact phrase does no have to be used for it to refer to old covenant feasts.

Show me where that PHRASE is used in obvious reference to flatly stated pagan days. If you demand the exact phrase be used to indicate feasts of Israel before you believe it, then why do you not require yourself to have exact phrase in reference to pagan days in teh same Bible before you believe it?

The only ones who would say pagan days are the days, months and years in Gal 4 are those with a predisposition of law-keeping. Anyone else reading chapter 3's shutting up of Jews under law as a schoolmaster is over children would read Chapter 4's reference to tutors and governors and maintain that same context of LAW, and realize that the days and months were LAW's feasts and holy days. It's the same with Col 2, ... a person has to create a whole set of hoops to leap through rather than accept the plain reading of the truth that SABBATH SHADOWS correspond to the TRUE BODY casting those shadows of CHRIST! Only a drilled-in sabbath-keeper would reject the plain reading in favour of a distortion and series of hoops.

The Biblical phrase is "holy days, new moons, and sabbath days" or some variation thereof. That is also the formula used in Jewish literature of the time to describe or refer to the sacred calendar. The phrase "days, months, times, and years" is unmistakably referring to a pagan calendar. This is further supported by the fact the Galatians (who had converted to Christ from paganism) were RETURNING to paganism as evidenced by their use of pagan time keeping systems.

Again, prove to me that exact phrase refers to pagan days. Context of Paul from chapter 3 says different! And you have ignored the "YOU"-Gentile contrast with the "WE/US" reference to Jews in contrast to Gentiles in the whole overall context as well.

Good Samaritans' reference to the OLD COVENAT Hagar and HAGER BONDAGE is undoubtedly the bondage that Paul refereed to in speaking of days, months and years.

Galatians 4:9-10
(9).. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(10).. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


...is the same as:

Galatians 4:24
(24).. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


...is the same as...

Galatians 3:23
(23).. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

4. This pagan calendar is associated with "the weak and beggarly elements" which is a phrase well known in the first century as referring to the elemental powers thought to direct and influence the affairs of men.

Error.

ELEMENTS are basic POSITIVE and GOOD necessary things. And LAW was a set of ELEMENTS as in ELEMENTARY. A person has to leap through hoops of mental gymnastics to say it is paganism. The context in chapter 3 is LAW. the context at the end of chapter 4 with Hagar is LAW, and the context of Gal 5:1 is LAW in speaking of circumcision.

Galatians 5:1-3
(1).. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(2).. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
(3).. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Law-keepers ignore all of this obvious context.

Pagan calendars were devoted to these elemental powers (as evidenced in their survival in the modern Gregorian calendar with days and months ass

It is not elemental POWERS. It is ELEMENTS which are necessary building blocks. Paul would never refer to paganism as ELEMENTS and true and good and necessary BUILDING blocks to bring people to Christ. But after Christ comes, a student under schoolmastery of law LEAVES the elementary things. ELEMENTS is considered correctly as ELEMENTARY in the schooling sense since Paul explicitly USES SCHOOLING to work his context of thought.

It is ELEMENTARY AS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL due to the context of law as a schoolmaster in ch 3, and tutors and governors MAINTIANING THAT CONTEXT in chapter 4, where we read this elementary schoolmastery of tutors and governos, Law, is bondage, JUST AS THE OLD COVENANT was explicitly shown to gender to BONDAGE, without one thought of ANY statement anywhere in the entire context of anyone MINGLING PAGANISM WITH OLD COVENANT as law-keepers must force the context to say.

Where do we read any note of mixing law with paganism? We only read gentiles were once pagans! We read NOTHING of MINGLING. When Paul spoke of bondage of shutting up and keeping under of the jews in LAW they were BINDING terms and bondage terms in the Greek under a WARD, or WARDEN. In fact, chapter 3 BEGINS by speaking of receiving Spirit by LAW (not law mingled wioth paganism) or by faith.

Chapter 3 is law versus grace.

Chapter 4 is law versus grace.

Chapter 5 is law versus grace.

3 mentions receiving Spirit by law or faith.

3 mentions law as a schoolmaster for Jews before Christ came.

4 mentions tutors and governors or 3's LAW as schoolmaster.

4 mentions elements that bind using 3's schoolmaster that kept under and shut up the Jews with Law, indicating an ELEMENTARY SCHOOLLING thought of the term ELEMENTS, not some extrabiblical reference to ELEMENTAL POWER of pagans that Paul never mentioned at all.

4 mentions days, months and years IN THAT CONTEXT of law's elementary school. In fact LAW is synonymous with OLD COVENANT in ch 4 where Paul explicitly stated that HAGAR represents the OLD COVENANT FROM SINAI that GENDERS TO BONDAGE. He did not say it only genders to bondage if one mixes it with paganism.

Ch 5 says be loosed and not bound under LAW with cirucmcision etc. .... NOT with LAW PLUS PAGANISM.

Law-keepers wrest Gal 3-4 worse than anybody else in christendom.

igned to various gods, equinoxes and solstices, the four seasons and their spans, etc). The Galatians were RETURNING to paganism, its superstitions, and its astrological time keeping systems.

If anyone wants to actually study the exegetical and historical data regarding what was going on in Galatia, I highly recommend "Pagan and Judeo-Christian Time-Keeping Schemes in Gal 4.10 and Col 2.16" by prof. Troy Martin. It can be found online but you will likely need a Cambridge pass or other institutional (seminary) pass, although at one time it was available as a pdf somewhere.

I'm sure it can convince an eskimo to buy a freezer, too. READ THE CONTEXT OF PAUL's WORDS as I outlined above.

5. WHATEVER Paul was arguing for and/or against, he most assuredly was NOT arguing against faithful obedience to and performance of the obligations mandated by commandments of God (see Romans 2, 6, 7, and 8 for example). Otherwise he is a hypocrite and preaches 1 thing in Rome and the OPPOSITE in Galatia.

Paul was plainly speaking of a bondage of law that was necessary ONLY BEFORE JESUS CAME, that was an entire system of SHADOWS until the BODY that cast those shadows brought the true sabbath rest and the true passover and the true reality of the shadowing days, months and years.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I know this will be dismissed or explained away, but here it is anyways.

Amen. The PLAIN reading says shadows that were cast by the body of Christ were in the form of ALL sabbath days (not some), meat laws as well as drink laws. Verse 17 explains the actual BODY IS CHRIST! Why have a shadow when we have the body? And these folks will detract from that and say that Christ has THINGS YET TO COME that are not here yet, when in reality Paul writes from the perspective of when these SHADOWS were in effect before Christ who was yet to come from that point in time.

And that is not made up as I went along. It is plain reading, confirmed by scholars by the multitude (and I suppose that some detracting comment will be made about that as well).