Chris Reed

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Amanah

There have been times when God has used me in spiritual gifts and has anointed me to teach bible studies to lost people, and I have never held a leadership position.
So I have to conclude that the gifts are not limited to the Apostles and Prophets.

Leadership positions have very little and in some cases, next to nothing to do, with God's gifting by grace.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Amanah

There have been times when God has used me in spiritual gifts and has anointed me to teach bible studies to lost people, and I have never held a leadership position.
So I have to conclude that the gifts are not limited to the Apostles and Prophets.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Leadership positions have very little and in some cases, next to nothing to do, with God's gifting by grace.

Also, you have things backwards, cart before the horse, as it were. You don't establish the soundness of a teaching by your personal experiences, you establish the soundness of a teaching according to what the Scriptures declare to be true.

For example, you could have--and I'm not saying you should have, just that you could have, concluded that because you don't believe yourself to be an apostle or prophetess, or because you've never held any leadership positions your personal experiences with the charismata and evangelistic Bible teachings were of the flesh and not of God.

You see, it's easier to find fault with a position than it is to find fault with yourself, generally speaking. So, the position I have undertaken to explicate, with much Scripture to verify my claims, has to be wrong, because of your personal, contradictory experiences, rather than your personal, contradictory experiences being the error in the face of the veracity of the position.

This is why we never determine what sound Biblical doctrine is by our experiences, because our experiences are subjective and therefore, misleading and prone to errors of the flesh.

No, we establish orthodoxy (correct belief) first, then we determine orthopraxy (correct practice), and then we determine orthopathy (correct experience). Always in that order, or we end up in carnal ditches all the way around.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The types of people Esaias mentioned are lawless people, some of whom were in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's writing, the church which it is believed literally "came behind in no gift". So, if I am understanding Esaias correctly, how is it that if you lack compassion, God can't use you because you're a legalist who condemns, but if you're a sinner of a different stripe but are generally speaking, compassionate, God can use you just fine?

Ahh... thanks.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Ahh... thanks.

But, of course, let him clarify, as I may have misrepresented him and I would rather not do so.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I've seen it scores of times from apostolic pulpits. I've been used, too.

I do know that this issue of use has something -- likely mostly -- to do with COMPASSION and love. Before Paul corrected the Corinthians about the gifts in chapter 14 after listing them in chapter 12, chapter 13 talks about LOVE/CHARITY. And look at the first verse in Chapter 14:

1 cor 14:14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Imagine someone using the word of knowledge like Jesus and knowing the woman at the well had five husbands, and was living with someone else's husband, and that person had a JUDGMENTAL nature and was condemning. Condemnation ALWAYS accompanies legalism. Even Paul said that LAw was a "ministration of condemnation!" God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

Altho I would generally speaking agree that gifts flow from love we must be very careful here. Was Jesus judgmental when he called the Pharisees two fold children of Hell? When he called Herod an old fox?

Was he judgmental when he killed Anannias and his wife?

Was he being legalistic when he expected the disciples at Sardis works to be perfect? The Ladoceans to be on fire?

Jesus was sometimes very kind in his dealings with people. Other times he could be terrible! Think of him overthrowing tables and driving the thieves and robbers from his Fathers house!

The real Jesus is rightly seen here.

Heb. 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So as with so many things all things must be put in the mix to get the final result.

While love is the crowning jewel of the Christian life, can we in a blanket fashion separate it from strong action? Perhaps it is wisdom that can connect kindness and judgment together into a more perfect understanding of Jesus and his ways?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Altho I would generally speaking agree that gifts flow from love we must be very careful here. Was Jesus judgmental when he called the Pharisees two fold children of Hell? When he called Herod an old fox?

Was he judgmental when he killed Anannias and his wife?

Was he being legalistic when he expected the disciples at Sardis works to be perfect? The Ladoceans to be on fire?

Jesus was sometimes very kind in his dealings with people. Other times he could be terrible! Think of him overthrowing tables and driving the thieves and robbers from his Fathers house!

The real Jesus is rightly seen here.

Heb. 1:9

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So as with so many things all things must be put in the mix to get the final result.

While love is the crowning jewel of the Christian life, can we in a blanket fashion separate it from strong action? Perhaps it is wisdom that can connect kindness and judgment together into a more perfect understanding of Jesus and his ways?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

I don't feel the need to respond to anything you have written except for this. Why are you taking the same view as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

And why would you take that view while being an "Admin" on an Apostolic Forum.

This is just very weird to me, and disturbing.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Regarding the emboldened text above:

WHAT?

Saints in the kingdom of God get and die from cancer. Deaf saints abound, as well. Are these then anti-Kingdom because they end up diseased and died or are never recovered from their deafness? Jesus isn't involved with them because their health concerns didn't leave when He showed up in their life?

Or maybe you think He left and forsook them because their so-called "anti-Kingdom" maladies made Him vacate for some unknown, un-Scriptural reason?

One wonders, then, when does this anti-Kingdom nonsense have to leave? Because if Jesus is involved in your life, and you are yet prattling this trash, then clearly it doesn't have to leave just because Jesus was brought into your situation.

I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I refer to the point that the Gospels say, except for those with unbelief, He "healed them all."

Do you heal them all? If not, how does that square with what you are implying this to mean? I ask in sincerity because a gentleman I attend church with says almost the exact same thing, yet can't answer that question except to say we must be missing something.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Do you heal them all? If not, how does that square with what you are implying this to mean? I ask in sincerity because a gentleman I attend church with says almost the exact same thing, yet can't answer that question except to say we must be missing something.

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.