Pastors. How to paralyze the Hebrew Roots doctrine

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I'm flabbergasted. Yea to actually think Jesus who was a Jew would be given a Hebrew name!

YIKES!

Yea who would ever reason something such as that!

Brother Mike, here are some more First Century Judeans with Greek or Roman names. The Apostle Phillip, Jesus first meets with a Sanhedrin by the Greek name Nicodemus. Paul’s name isn’t his first name, it is his family name which is a Roman patrician name, as well as Marcus who is Yohanan, John Mark. His family name is also a Roman patrician name.

So now you must be flabbergasting all over the place.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Another thing, you have Roman Judeans one named Aquila, another Prisca, another Lois, Timothy, and his mother a Judean who has the name Eunice which is as Pagan Roman as they come.

Flabbergast is how much people want to become Judized instead of Christianized. Speaking Hebrilish doesn't make one more first centurish, or more Biblish. Definitely not more Apostolic.

I almost fell out when I walked into a Apostolic church that had Israeli flags and Hexagrams decorating the sanctuary. Seriously!?!

[Aquila]

Imagine if your second wife began dressing, talking, cooking, and acting like your unfaithful first wife because she thought that somehow you'd love her more. That's what I feel like we're doing when we seek to make our faith Jewish in style and practice.

Guys, unless Judaism is in your ancestry, is a natural part of the culture you were raised in, why pretend? If you're Dutch-English, why in the world would you turn your religion into a game of "Let's dress up and pretend we're Jewish"????

I have Scottish/Irish heritage (discovered some Dutch and Scandinavian in there too). I'm not going to pretend I'm Jewish, act Jewish, pretend that I know Hebrew when I don't, or subject myself to all the carnal ordinances of the Law of Moses. I'm a loud and proud Gentle.

Also, my first wife's family was partly Jewish (Reformed), so, I saw that mess up close. Not my cup of tea.

[Michael The Disciple]

So after all this its true. Apostolics are in no way concerned that Hebrew Roots might lead one into the law of Moses. Its all about the name of Yeshua.

But I am not surprised in a way. How could THEY who themselves make parts of the law of Moses essential to enter Heaven be concerned about some other group doing it.

So there seems to be no way to caution them against speaking evil of the name Peter preached in Acts 4:12. Its typical of what I have noted among many (thankfully not all) Apostolics.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Another thing, you have Roman Judeans one named Aquila, another Prisca, another Lois, Timothy, and his mother a Judean who has the name Eunice which is as Pagan Roman as they come.

Flabbergast is how much people want to become Judized instead of Christianized. Speaking Hebrilish doesn't make one more first centurish, or more Biblish. Definitely not more Apostolic.

I almost fell out when I walked into a Apostolic church that had Israeli flags and Hexagrams decorating the sanctuary. Seriously!?!

Lol.

Would all that make them, "Apostolic-ish", at best?. Lol

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So after all this its true. Apostolics are in no way concerned that Hebrew Roots might lead one into the law of Moses. Its all about the name of Yeshua.

But I am not surprised in a way. How could THEY who themselves make parts of the law of Moses essential to enter Heaven be concerned about some other group doing it.

So there seems to be no way to caution them against speaking evil of the name Peter preached in Acts 4:12. Its typical of what I have noted among many (thankfully not all) Apostolics.

HRM doesn't lead to the law of Moses. It leads to the Talmud, the leaven of the Pharisees.

But it looks like you can't see anything beyond your own personal preference for a Jewish sounding name? And so you miss the whole point that has been made?

Michael, do you believe cross dressing is okay? Or do you believe Deut 22:5 is something to be laughed at, mocked, or avoided lest you be "stuck in the law of Moses"?

[Michael The Disciple]

Post 1 on this thread said in part:

The Hebrew Roots brethren are opposing the ministry with very articulate arguments, causing wonderful, solid, Apostolic brethren and from every other Christian faith, to go back to try and keep the Law.

I hardly know anyone who practices using the name YESHUA. I find nothing wrong with using it. Period. It seems there could be nothing wrong with it. Whoever teaches you must ONLY use Yeshua excluding Jesus and teaching its wrong to use Jesus is in error. From what I have seen over the years I would say there are FAR more people who call the Lord "Yeshua" than that use Yeshua and ALSO try to bring believers under the law.

So I in no way am supporting the "Hebrew Roots" groups that are teaching its sin to use Jesus or that teach going back to Moses law. I would oppose them. It could be they teach some things that I do believe. Whatever is true I am all for. Even if some heretical grioup believes the same thing.

Thats the same way I see the Apostolic Churches. Most of them seem to fall short of the original New Testament Church. But they do have some very important truth, Oneness and the new birth. Yet there are things taught among them that are seriously wrong and COULD POSSIBLY lead to the loss of salvation for some.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

HRM doesn't lead to the law of Moses. It leads to the Talmud, the leaven of the Pharisees.

But it looks like you can't see anything beyond your own personal preference for a Jewish sounding name? And so you miss the whole point that has been made?

Michael, do you believe cross dressing is okay? Or do you believe Deut 22:5 is something to be laughed at, mocked, or avoided lest you be "stuck in the law of Moses"?

Ok the Talmud is Jewish commentary. It is absolutely anti Messiah and blaspheming Yeshua. There have been people who study Hebrew Roots, many because they never really knew the Old Testament who have left Yeshua altogether. True. However I would hardly think that any of the groups of them who believe Yeshua is the Messiah would point anyone that direction. After all they are encouraging their followers to BELIEVE IN YESHUA.....not forsake him.

Do I mock Duet 22:5? Of course not. It is my personal preference that all women would wear long dresses. But heres the problem with Apostolics and the law.

They take you back to Duet 22:5 and say this is Heaven or Hell.

AND YET....when it comes to beards on men they TOTALLY go into hypocrite mode.

Leviticus 19:27

You shall not round the corners of your heads neither shalt thou mar the corners of THY BEARD!

Ok so on one hand the Apostolics teach on the basis of Duet 22:5 a women goes to Hell for wearing pants.

On the other hand they FULLY REJECT Leviticus 19:27! They would say "thats the Old Testament". Amen?

So then God promotes beards Apostolics preach against them. I just talked to a Pastor this past week who trying to get around the issue said he does not "favor beards" and especially for those in leadership!

You get the point? They cherry pick whatever they like from Moses.

I just wonder how many sincere people find the truth of Oneness and want to attend a Oneness Church and then discover such pathetic doctrine? They preach mightily against the traditions of men and then drive people away because they do the same thing.

Or when women are told they are going to Hell over Jewlery which in the Old Testament God approved of and the Preachers say that was OT now its forbidden in the New.

But at the same time they are given Duet 22:5...Heaven or Hell directly from the OT!

Get the point? What Im trying to say is that you all paint with WAY TO WIDE A BRUSH in some of these discussions. As if every one who might say they are into Hebrew Roots are all blasphemers of Jesus name and all become followers of the Talmud.

Some might tend to think they would have to commit sin to join an Apostolic Church. The same thing you all are saying about Hebrew Roots. I mean the truth is Apostolics (many not all) take the sinner just born again and put them under Moses law.

And THEN at the same time like the first post in this thread condemn some other group for doing the same thing.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So after all this its true. Apostolics are in no way concerned that Hebrew Roots might lead one into the law of Moses. Its all about the name of Yeshua.

But I am not surprised in a way. How could THEY who themselves make parts of the law of Moses essential to enter Heaven be concerned about some other group doing it.

So there seems to be no way to caution them against speaking evil of the name Peter preached in Acts 4:12. Its typical of what I have noted among many (thankfully not all) Apostolics.

Brother Mike, HRM doesn't teach the Law of Moses, but the Talmud. Brother Mike, no one keeps the law of the temple, no one can keep a Nazarite vow, because it needs a mediator priest. Most of the law incorporates Levitical priesthood in practice. Still can't figure out what on earth you mean by they keep parts of the law. What ceremony was performed in Deuteronomy 22:5?

Brother Michael what does Revelation 9:8 mean when it says hair like women? What is hair like women?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok the Talmud is Jewish commentary.

It isn't that simple. The Talmud is not actually a commentary, but it is a huge collection of Sages and Rabbis interpretations of Torah. If you ever spent long enough time with Rabbinics you would learn that when they make a quote, you can't recognize it. You, can't let them even finish the thought. Because in all your study of the Bible old and new testaments you can't for the life of you remember anything remotely close to what they are quoting. Some Christians get all doe eyed and slowly drop their jaws like they are birds just waiting for the mother to feed them. But, what the Rabbi is quoting from is Talmud. Why does it sound like he is stating these things authoritatively, because he accepts the Talmud far beyond Torah. Now there are Ribbinics who don't use Talmud, but they still follow other traditional texts. But, to the Talmudic Rabbinical Jew, the Talmud is far more than just commentary.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It is absolutely anti Messiah and blaspheming Yeshua. There have been people who study Hebrew Roots, many because they never really knew the Old Testament who have left Yeshua altogether. True. However I would hardly think that any of the groups of them who believe Yeshua is the Messiah would point anyone that direction.

You do know that your statement above is based on assumption. They really never knew the Old Testament? Please forgive me, but you are kidding yourself. Have you ever listened at length to an Anti Missionary Rabbi? Do you understand their arguments? Do you believe that the Rabbi even thinks what you believe is even considerable? I have met scores of Christians who honestly sincerely believe that the Rabbinical Jew believes in the same one God that we believe in? The answer you would get from a Rabbinical Jew would be a resounding NO WAY! The Anti Missionary Rabbi doesn't use the Talmud to refute what you believe. He goes straight to the Hebrew Bible. In Hebrew, which he knows more than three words, then the parroted, yeshua, shabbat, and shalom. It is hard for people to believe that educated in the Bible people get sucked into some outrageous situations. They never knew their Old Testament? That my deary is just a hopeful wish. It isn't a lack of Old Testament scholarship that lead them into the darkness of Rabbinical Judaism. It was their paradigm, their yearning to be the chosen people. Because after all, we have been told over and over that the chosen people sure wasn't those baptized in Jesus name. The Jew was the apple of God's eye, and we actually were a plan B. The focus becomes the Judaic emerald city. Which isn't Jerusalem from above the mother of us all.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

After all they are encouraging their followers to BELIEVE IN YESHUA.....not forsake him.

Cognitive dissonance is strong. So, strong that you refuse to see what you are doing. Kentucky is how far from the nearest street in Tel Aviv? 6210 miles? But you all got together and agreed to call Him a name you never grew up speaking? Why am I calling Him Yeshua? It was His original name? Says who? Oh, because He was a Jew, and? Where is the documentation? The New Testament was written all in Greek, and when I read it last my Bible KJV said call His name JESUS. Yeshua, Yahshua, it isn't just about calling Him a Hebrew name, it is about sounding Hebrew. Like Esaias pointed out they then go further to pronounce books of the New Testament in Hebrew. Where did anyone call Him Yeshua in the oldest document that is actually about the Christ? No where, does anyone doubt that John was Yohanan? But Yohanan has a full blown patrician Roman name Marcus. I once even had someone try to Hebrewize the name of Mark. You think that the people who went into Judaism didn't love Jesus, or Yeshua as you want to call Him. It is easy to blow these people off by trying to say that they were messed up from jump street. Hey, makes you sleep better at night. Because you have already came up with a good excuse "they really never loved yeshua?" No, the better answer is that they were already pumped and primed to change their name to David Ben Avraham, to have a pin prick, and blood drawn, then walk every shabbat to synagogue.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do I mock Duet 22:5? Of course not. It is my personal preference that all women would wear long dresses. But heres the problem with Apostolics and the law.

They take you back to Duet 22:5 and say this is Heaven or Hell.

AND YET....when it comes to beards on men they TOTALLY go into hypocrite mode.

Leviticus 19:27

You shall not round the corners of your heads neither shalt thou mar the corners of THY BEARD!

Ok so on one hand the Apostolics teach on the basis of Duet 22:5 a women goes to Hell for wearing pants.

On the other hand they FULLY REJECT Leviticus 19:27! They would say "thats the Old Testament". Amen?

So then God promotes beards Apostolics preach against them. I just talked to a Pastor this past week who trying to get around the issue said he does not "favor beards" and especially for those in leadership!

You get the point? They cherry pick whatever they like from Moses.

I just wonder how many sincere people find the truth of Oneness and want to attend a Oneness Church and then discover such pathetic doctrine? They preach mightily against the traditions of men and then drive people away because they do the same thing.

You been in religion a long time. Right?

People aren't driven away, people are sifted. The problem is this, the person just leaves to find the church that suits them. the Hebrew Rootist leaves Christianity because they feel they were already groomed for it.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Or when women are told they are going to Hell over Jewlery which in the Old Testament God approved of and the Preachers say that was OT now its forbidden in the New.

But at the same time they are given Duet 22:5...Heaven or Hell directly from the OT!

Get the point? What Im trying to say is that you all paint with WAY TO WIDE A BRUSH in some of these discussions. As if every one who might say they are into Hebrew Roots are all blasphemers of Jesus name and all become followers of the Talmud.

No, no wide brush. You are starting to sound like someone who leads a very sheltered religious life? Brother Michael? On Pal Talk do they have any Anti-Missionary Jews? Have you tried to refute them on Yeshua? Do you know their arguments? Do you know why they have a group called Jews for Judaism? Have you ever heard the story why Rabbi Tovia Singer committed his life to refute Jews for Jesus? These people aren't going after Presbyterian Jews, or Eastern Russian Orthodox Christian Jews. They go after the easy pickins, which are Hebrew Roots and Messianic groups. because they already have one foot in the synagogue to begin with.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Some might tend to think they would have to commit sin to join an Apostolic Church. The same thing you all are saying about Hebrew Roots. I mean the truth is Apostolics (many not all) take the sinner just born again and put them under Moses law.

This makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And THEN at the same time like the first post in this thread condemn some other group for doing the same thing.

Really, the Apostolics are going around acting like Jews???

I think you are missing what has been already said in this thread. Also the first post in this thread isn't much use. We actually don't know what direction he was going to take it. Probably just spam the entire thread