More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Sure, but this still doesn't answer the question of how it can be that the Baptist down the street without the holy ghost, without the truth and without even having his sins washed away in Jesus' name baptism can live a more godly life than those in your own church that you would call saved.



No, the same CANNOT be said of other religions. Islam doesn't even express faith in Jesus and that he died and was resurrected for our sins. That's a major difference.

Most importantly, how can the guy that believes 99% of what you believe except claims to believe in the Trinity and also believes that salvation occurs and faith and has never spoken in tongues or had his sins washed away in Jesus name.... how can you call that guy damned when there's a 1% difference in what you and him believe and he is living a more godly life than many you would call saved?

If he's not doing that by the power of God then all your Holy Ghost power basically amounts to nothing. How can that be so?

If he's wrong about that little what things could you be wrong about that might keep you out of heaven? Why does doctrinal truth only become salvational for those topics and not for others?



You should be able to figure out why this question is soo important by now and why holding on to the position of claiming others are damned simply because of some relatively minor doctrinal differences doesn't end in a good place no matter no matter how you try to frame it.

Ole brother Cornelius was a pretty nice guy too...with all that niceness, prayer and almsgiving he STILL needed the HolyGhost.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Ole brother Cornelius was a pretty nice guy too...with all that niceness, prayer and almsgiving he STILL needed the HolyGhost.

Your Kung Fu...is Very Good!

[FlamingZword]

OK what makes an Apostolic a true Apostolic.

is it because the Apostolic has received all the light there is?
or is it because the Apostolic has accepted the message that Peter gave in the day of Pentecost?

The basic message that Peter gave in Pentecost was repeated by Phillip and then by Ananias and then by Paul.
The reason we are or should be called apostolic is because we are in agreement with the Apostles basic message in the book of Acts.

Jesus clearly told us that the Holy Spirit would guide is into all truth.
Does this guiding into all truth happens all at once or is it a process of revealing truth and then more truth.
In other words does the Holy Spirit gives us some light and as we accept that light, then we receive more light and so on.
or you think he just floods us at once with all the light or knowledge of God?

You see I study the Bible because I want to receive more light, If I believed that I had all the light then what need would I ever have to read the Bible at all?

[votivesoul]

Anyone remember the parable the Lord Jesus shared about the three servants who were each given a number of talents of money by their master, who then went on a long journey, to eventually come back and find out what each servant did with the talents they had received?

Of course we all remember it! But what does the parable, in the end, teach us?

Jesus explained that the servant who hid the talent had it taken away from him and given to the man who had earned ten talents. What then did the master say?

Matthew 25:29-30 (ESV),

29. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I believe this parable isn't really about money, and it's certainly not about a person's "talents", as so many mistakenly interpret it. It's about revelation and knowledge of the Son of Man (See verse 31).

So, for everyone who has received light and revelation, more will be given if they make use of it and continue on into what the Master desires of them.

But the one who camps on what the Lord has shown them, and stagnates, and doesn't pursue holy truth, that person will lose out, have what the Lord gave them taken, and in the end: weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness.

So, where the light doctrine falls short, is that, the moment the Lord gives a person more light, the more light there is going to be waiting for them, and if they will but go after it, and make use of what their Master has given them, they will find entrance into the joy of the Lord.

So, when the Master comes calling, He's not looking for someone who has parked themselves on their keester waiting for the Second Coming, He's looking for those who have been faithful, who have taken the gifts and revelations God has given them, who then shared those things with the world. The former is cast out, the latter is received.

So, this idea that someone can only get so much light before they get kicked off this mortal coil is not congruent with the Holy Scriptures. Ignorance has never been a justifiable defense in the pages of the Book.

Everyone, and I mean, everyone who wants truth gets truth. Everyone who desires light receives it. Ask, seek, and knock, right? Therefore there is no reason whatsoever for any of us, or for any who call themselves Christians, to go into the darkness of eternal condemnation, when the Illumination of the Cosmos, Jesus of Nazareth has promised it to one and all, to whomsoever will.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

OK what makes an Apostolic a true Apostolic.

is it because the Apostolic has received all the light there is?
or is it because the Apostolic has accepted the message that Peter gave in the day of Pentecost?

The basic message that Peter gave in Pentecost was repeated by Phillip and then by Ananias and then by Paul.
The reason we are or should be called apostolic is because we are in agreement with the Apostles basic message in the book of Acts.

Jesus clearly told us that the Holy Spirit would guide is into all truth.
Does this guiding into all truth happens all at once or is it a process of revealing truth and then more truth.
In other words does the Holy Spirit gives us some light and as we accept that light, then we receive more light and so on.
or you think he just floods us at once with all the light or knowledge of God?

You see I study the Bible because I want to receive more light, If I believed that I had all the light then what need would I ever have to read the Bible at all?

I was literally typing my post when you were posting the above. I didn't even know you had done so until afterward.

You said exactly the same thing, and used yourself as an example. Praise the Lord, Brother!

[Evang.Benincasa]

You are born again, and the Bible calls you are baby Hebrews 5:13. The milk which is spoken of in the New Testament is the milk as a child is nursed "the sincere milk of the word" 1 Peter 2:2. You are to grow in Christ going from an infant, to a youth to an elder "fathers", 1 John 2:13-14 This is all a process, and we move forward in this process through the tutelage of the Holy Ghost who is Jesus Christ the One True Living God. Jesus uses parts of His One Body, which, His hands and His feet 1 Corinthians 12:15-26. Jesus' ministry are used by Him to be sighted guides to build up the Body Ephesians 4:11-16. A guide to the blind, an instructor to the foolish Romans 2:19-20. Yet, sadly these instructors refuse to take their own advise Romans 2:21-24. The Bible warns us through James that those who teach, and lead should be extremely careful James 3:1. Jesus warned those who would offend the neophyte Matthew 18:6, Luke 17:1-2. Jesus also warned the road which those who who would follow the Jackleg preacher Luke 6:39-40. Jesus said that the one you follow and are fully trained by, it is that guide who you will become like. Jesus' admonition to ditch the blind leaders before the blind leaders ditched YOU Matthew 15:14.

Waxing philosophically about this doesn't disprove a thing, a child of God cannot stay a child. You must be diligent to continue to grow, and not stop the process. Again, people are going to do as they very well please, and go to churches and congregations which they don't adhere, listen, submit, or learn. The Holy Ghost guidance? If we don't ever apply and yield to the basic principles in the Bible, then we are incapable of being guided. Remember, it will never be Jesus' fault if we miss heaven. It will only be ours.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Anyone remember the parable the Lord Jesus shared about the three servants who were each given a number of talents of money by their master, who then went on a long journey, to eventually come back and find out what each servant did with the talents they had received?

Of course we all remember it! But what does the parable, in the end, teach us?

Jesus explained that the servant who hid the talent had it taken away from him and given to the man who had earned ten talents. What then did the master say?

Matthew 25:29-30 (ESV),



I believe this parable isn't really about money, and it's certainly not about a person's "talents", as so many mistakenly interpret it. It's about revelation and knowledge of the Son of Man (See verse 31).

So, for everyone who has received light and revelation, more will be given if they make use of it and continue on into what the Master desires of them.

But the one who camps on what the Lord has shown them, and stagnates, and doesn't pursue holy truth, that person will lose out, have what the Lord gave them taken, and in the end: weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness.

So, where the light doctrine falls short, is that, the moment the Lord gives a person more light, the more light there is going to be waiting for them, and if they will but go after it, and make use of what their Master has given them, they will find entrance into the joy of the Lord.

So, when the Master comes calling, He's not looking for someone who has parked themselves on their keester waiting for the Second Coming, He's looking for those who have been faithful, who have taken the gifts and revelations God has given them, who then shared those things with the world. The former is cast out, the latter is received.

So, this idea that someone can only get so much light before they get kicked off this mortal coil is not congruent with the Holy Scriptures. Ignorance has never been a justifiable defense in the pages of the Book.

Everyone, and I mean, everyone who wants truth gets truth. Everyone who desires light receives it. Ask, seek, and knock, right? Therefore there is no reason whatsoever for any of us, or for any who call themselves Christians, to go into the darkness of eternal condemnation, when the Illumination of the Cosmos, Jesus of Nazareth has promised it to one and all, to whomsoever will.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Sure, but this still doesn't answer the question of how it can be that the Baptist down the street without the holy ghost, without the truth and without even having his sins washed away in Jesus' name baptism can live a more godly life than those in your own church that you would call saved.



No, the same CANNOT be said of other religions. Islam doesn't even express faith in Jesus and that he died and was resurrected for our sins. That's a major difference.

Most importantly, how can the guy that believes 99% of what you believe except claims to believe in the Trinity and also believes that salvation occurs and faith and has never spoken in tongues or had his sins washed away in Jesus name.... how can you call that guy damned when there's a 1% difference in what you and him believe and he is living a more godly life than many you would call saved?

If he's not doing that by the power of God then all your Holy Ghost power basically amounts to nothing. How can that be so?

If he's wrong about that little what things could you be wrong about that might keep you out of heaven? Why does doctrinal truth only become salvational for those topics and not for others?



You should be able to figure out why this question is soo important by now and why holding on to the position of claiming others are damned simply because of some relatively minor doctrinal differences doesn't end in a good place no matter no matter how you try to frame it.

Do YOU have the answers to the points you raised?

What about the devout Muslim or Buddhist who lives an ethical, moral life that puts your Baptist saint to shame?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do YOU have the answers to the points you raised?

What about the devout Muslim or Buddhist who lives an ethical, moral life that puts your Baptist saint to shame?

JFrog already answer that question with this...

Originally Posted by jfrog

No, the same CANNOT be said of other religions. Islam doesn't even express faith in Jesus and that he died and was resurrected for our sins. That's a major difference.

He is saying that niceness, godliness, or should I say "gifts of the spirit" come from expressing faith in Jesus and that He died and was resurrected for remission of sins. Yet, JFrog's whole premise is someone "behaving" godly. He uses a hypothetical Baptist who blows away a pork eating fearful Peter, to prove that religion A cannot state that religion X is wrong and if followed will lead you to a ditch. Yet, as you and I pointed out, JFrog's logic must indeed be handed out to a plethora of different devotees of other religions. JFrog's premise is Joe B is nicer than Joe A, therefore Joe A can't say Joe B is going to lose out with God. Again, JFrog is still pointing us to behavior, and therefore since he uses that as his indicator for a get out of jail free card, then all other religions should get in line. Whether they believe in Jesus Christ is moot, because JFrog is wanting us to accept niceness over rightness.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

JFrog already answer that question with this...



He is saying that niceness, godliness, or should I say "gifts of the spirit" come from expressing faith in Jesus and that He died and was resurrected for remission of sins. Yet, JFrog's whole premise is someone "behaving" godly. He uses a hypothetical Baptist who blows away a pork eating fearful Peter, to prove that religion A cannot state that religion X is wrong and if followed will lead you to a ditch. Yet, as you and I pointed out, JFrog's logic must indeed be handed out to a plethora of different devotees of other religions. JFrog's premise is Joe B is nicer than Joe A, therefore Joe A can't say Joe B is going to lose out with God. Again, JFrog is still pointing us to behavior, and therefore since he uses that as his indicator for a get out of jail free card, then all other religions should get in line. Whether they believe in Jesus Christ is moot, because JFrog is wanting us to accept niceness over rightness.

So, once again, it turns out the sweet pea liberals are actually genuine legalists, who convert grace into debt and faith into deeds of some law standard of self-righteousness.