All the commandments and ordinances of the Lord? Like not wearing poly-knit clothing? That can't be the meaning.
The term "righteous" before God, that's important. But what is being "righteous"?
Pure of heart? That's also a good answer in my opinion... and I firmly believe that's part of it.
But I think Jesus meant something pretty down to earth here. The Greek word for "perfect" is "teleios". It is often translated "perfect", "man", or "full of age", "mature"; all in the sense of wanting nothing additional to complete us.
The Army put it this way, "Be All You Can Be".
But here's a secret most don't realize. You can't be all you can be unless you ditch the man made rules that shackle you from becoming who God made you to be. By obeying all the man made rules... you just become what men want you to be. And in that, you have your reward.
Yes, but principled teaching should be consistent not everyone all over the place. That is what you see now. Also I find it interesting that everyone puts down God's law because they don't relate to it. Just an observation.
Which if you read my other post you would understand why I said complete! He is our completion our goal of which we are to reflect HIS glory in so that our very being in all manner speaks holy as a witness of who He is.
I really don't like the question of "how conservative is conservative enough". I think what we should really be asking is "Am I following God's Law?" Whether society views it as liberal or conservative shouldn't matter.
Personally, this is the path I follow in my attempt to be "perfect" as my father in heaven is perfect...
I try to love God with all I am.
- I try not to have anything more important than him in my life.
- I try not to be materialistic.
- I give God reverence.
- I set time aside to worship him.
I try to love and treat others the way I'd want to be loved and treated.
- When my mom was alive I cherished her. Today I keep my pastor in the highest respect, even though we disagree sometime.
- I refuse to shed blood or speak evil of a brother slanderously as gossip (confession here, I like to jab at some folks online when debating, but I don't go about murdering anyone with my tongue offline. In fact, all of you - liberal or conservative are some of the finest folks in Pentecost.
- I'm faithful to my wife.
- I respect the property of others and I don't take what's not mine.
- I don't lie about people.
- And I try not to loose sight and become consumed with wanting what others might have. (I sincerely struggle here sometimes.)
Those are my spiritual objectives. Most of the time I do well and meet my objectives. But there have been times when I've broken every rule I've set out to keep at one point or another. I have faith that if I focus on those things and do my very best...the rest of it all will fall into place.
That's my path. I trust some of you have a different approach. Some of you might have a better approach. But I don't focus on the traditions of men so much anymore.
Aquila. I appreciate your posts. Are you a pastor?
No, and would never want to be.
Quote:
Not all saints are the same. Some will never mature, but they will be saved. What that means is that some needs things spelled out, and others need space. Perhaps this brings more reason that the pastor should avoid, as much as possible, blanket theologies concerning distinctives, if he can just be more personal with the saints. We are all not the same... and each sheep needs to be guided accordingly. You're right, true sanctification happens when it isn't dictated. Pastors can help the congregation know what God likes and doesn't like through sound teaching, and then letting the congregation make the application. I've been accused of being an idealist, and maybe that's true.
I can agree with most of that. The place where I differ is only nit picky. I know you said that some will never "mature", but they will be saved. That raised a question for me... who judges when one has reached the full level possible for maturity in Christ? I'll admit, I'm not qualified to judge it. I can see that some saints appear more mature than others... but I can't tell if that immature saint, while appearing immature to me, is actually being the fullness of what "they" can be for God. I used to work with the handicapped. Sometimes they never could walk straight... but they were walking as straight as they could will all their might. I think that sin, genetics, circumstances, sorrow, grief, disappointments, and failures can "cripple" a person and leave them spiritually handicapped. They may spiritually walk with a limp for the rest of their lives, struggling with a sin, temptation, bad choices, loss, and depression... but in God's eyes maybe they are being all they can truly be for him. While here I sit making excuses for myself when I could truly do better. In that sense, they are far more perfect that me.
Just a thought that was rolling around in my tiny brain.
My only concern should be is on how to please the Lord. I learned along time ago that you never, EVER please people, no matter how hard you try, and no matter what you do. So, we should concern ourselves with but one thing, and that is to please the Lord. How do we do that, you ask? Simple. Follow Him. Thats it. Just follow Him.
I'll never be conservative enough. And I don't try. I just follow the Lord. And, thats been working pretty good for me. And, yes, it IS that simple.
__________________
"Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him...." -Psa. 37:7
Waiting for the Lord is easy... Waiting patiently? Not so much.
I can agree with most of that. The place where I differ is only nit picky. I know you said that some will never "mature", but they will be saved. That raised a question for me... who judges when one has reached the full level possible for maturity in Christ? I'll admit, I'm not qualified to judge it. I can see that some saints appear more mature than others... but I can't tell if that immature saint, while appearing immature to me, is actually being the fullness of what "they" can be for God. I used to work with the handicapped. Sometimes they never could walk straight... but they were walking as straight as they could will all their might. I think that sin, genetics, circumstances, sorrow, grief, disappointments, and failures can "cripple" a person and leave them spiritually handicapped. They may spiritually walk with a limp for the rest of their lives, struggling with a sin, temptation, bad choices, loss, and depression... but in God's eyes maybe they are being all they can truly be for him. While here I sit making excuses for myself when I could truly do better. In that sense, they are far more perfect that me.
Just a thought that was rolling around in my tiny brain.
I guess my immature I'm referring to obvious Christians that are saved by always seem to mess up, get in trouble, make foolish decisions, etc... It's not being judgmental, it's just reality. I'm not the most seasoned either -- but by the grace of God, I'm growing and putting away the milk for the meat. Paul talked about immaturity when he said "when I was a child I spake as a child..."
Not a trick question. Not trying to be a smart alec. Just curious:
How conservative is conservative enough? There is a spectrum, from ultralib to ultracon, and you are at a certain point on the spectrum that's somewhere toward the ultracon extreme, correct? But there are some who are even further to the "right" than you. Maybe they're so conservative, they don't even use the internet, so we'll never see them here on AFF. Are they too conservative? Or is that even possible?
Think of it another way. You UCs seem to be quite pleased at how closely you hold to certain ideals, doctrines, etc. Your position on the spectrum is certainly better (in your view) than someone who is more lax on these things, right? Well, then wouldn't it be even better for you to push on even further to the right? Those guys that are already there: are they better than you?
Is there a particular spot where everyone to the right of it is OK, and everyone to the left of it isn't OK? And where you put yourself in that region: is it just personal preference?
So, the back to the basic question: how conservative is conservative enough?
How conservative is conservative enough? Easy! Steve Epley.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
My only concern should be is on how to please the Lord. I learned along time ago that you never, EVER please people, no matter how hard you try, and no matter what you do. So, we should concern ourselves with but one thing, and that is to please the Lord. How do we do that, you ask? Simple. Follow Him. Thats it. Just follow Him.
I'll never be conservative enough. And I don't try. I just follow the Lord. And, thats been working pretty good for me. And, yes, it IS that simple.
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