Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[Esaias]

http://www.leonard-ravenhill.com/quotes


"
“I doubt that more than two percent of professing Christians in the United States are truly born again.”

Wow, he's a lot less generous than WE are, eh? Why this Ravenhill guy must have been a cranky cultist, look at him, rejecting 98% of all professing Christians in America. He just sent 98 percent of ALL BELIEVERS TO HELL. He couldn't possibly be right, eh?

[Esaias]

If all these different churches have the same Spirit... then why do they all teach different "truths"? In fact, why don't they have the same spirit...if they have the same Spirit?

Why do some believe repentance requires turning from sin, others believe that view is satanic heresy...but they are all in the same faith? The same religion?

Were the apostles so incompetent they couldn't write down the truth? Is God not able to spell it out for us?

Or is man just a rebel at heart?

[Esaias]

Jason, listen to this:

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost: What it is, why you need it, and how to get it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jason, you are holding up men whom you believe a "great men of God", and you can't imagine they would be lost. That is EXACTLY what the Lord talked about when he said " not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter in" etc.

Now, Jason, do yo believe that repentance includes a return to present, full, obedience? Can a person say they have faith and yet reject the "proper way taught by the apostles"? Does not REAL faith produce real obedience?

Or do you believe getting saved by " repenting and claiming Jesus" is the ONLY IMPORTANT THING, all else is just additional and optional?

Do you believe the truly saved will walk in ALL THE TRUTH AVAILABLE TO THEM?

Can I be saved while keeping my unbiblical, heretical delusions and false doctrines?

How much deception are the elect allowed to wallow in? How many damnable heresies can a person believe and still not be lost?

Does "believe in Jesus" include Acts 2:38? Or not? If not, then why did Peter say what he said? And if it does, then how can a believer - a genuine believer - not experience it?

And what exactly is "belief"? Belief in what? Which gospel? The one invented in the late 1800s-early 1900s call " evangelicalism"? The one invented in the 1500s called Protestantism? The one invented in the 3-4th centuries, called Catholicism?

Which one?

I wasted a ton of time typing up a response only to hit "submit reply" and be told I'm not logged in and lose all of it. So i'll keep it short:

The many who will say Lord lord and be rejected are not trinitarians and all anti oneness. They are various people who considered themselves believers, but never repented, and were never saved to begin with. These are the tares, the 3 types of unfruitful ground, the false disciples, the multitudes who followed for the fish and loaves, the ones who made merchandise of the saints, the false teachers and their followers condemned by Paul in Galatians and Colossians, by peter in his Epsitles, John in his epistles, and Jude in his epistle and every recycling of those heresies through history. There are plenty of people throughout history (and in our day) who claim to be believers and who are not. Thats not even a disputed point, and the fact that they greatly outnumber true believers is also likewise conceded by essentially every one who truly believes. I'm not sure I'd agree with Ravenhill that 98% of American Christians aren't saved, I tend to estimate 80%, either way its not "percentage" that matters, all such estimates are simply man's opinion, and Ravenhill could have been using a figure of speech. The main point is American Christianity as a whole is unbiblical and filled with false converts. I've ALWAYS affirmed that, and do so to this day. And so do many godly men (such as Ravenhill--if you haven't read his book "Sodom Had No Bible, you should do so) and Paul Washer, who expresses views I agree with here, in a 4 minute clip, that saves me much of the typing I lost in my first response:

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Note:
I wanted to add this after my post, because I would like Micheal, or Esaias (who I believe also does not attend church) to speak to it.
I am wanting to hear an answer about sectarianism, but the use of "you" in that paragraph was a general "you" whoever you are who don't attend church, in large part because of being self studied. Not necessarily all pointed to Michael, but I do hope for an answer.

I do believe that (as far as a mans opinion goes) that Michael is a genuine believer who is a brother in Christ. So in prodding you a little bit, I'm not trying to belittle your faith, but I am trying to point out that is SEEMS like the real reason for separating from the church is that you believe basically everyone who attends church in your area is lost. No one is really preaching the saving gospel, there is not any 1 congregation of true believers. Right or wrong?

First off I do attend Church. I work 3rd shift with no certain days off so I dont go most of the time. I attend a UPC Church. They do teach enough to get a man saved and Im sure they teach God is one tho I have never heard him actually teach on it.

But the REAL REASON I have spent many years outside of mainstream Churches is simple. Their teaching is more harmful than it is good as to the things of Jesus. The Oneness groups teach enough to get one saved and thats about it.

Am I self taught? Depends on what you mean. Do I study for myself? I have almost every day for the last 41 years. Have I learned from men?

Well I started out for the first 4-5 years reading several Christian books a week. I devoured books by Evangelicals and later Charismatic/Pentecostal. So I have studied under many of the famous teachers of my day.

Problem was the more I studied the more I could see the difference in what MY HERO TEACHERS taught than what Jesus taught.

I actually have had to change ALL my beliefs since 1974. Other than just the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and men can be saved.

So I dont know what you are looking for? I believe there are Churches that preach the basic gospel of the new birth. They are called "Apostolic" or Oneness Pentecostals.

Yet do I think they preach the full gospel? I know of 3 Churches that teach what I consider having the full foundational truths. No doubt there are more because I have obviously not been able to check out every group around!

So maybe some people can stomach sitting in a Church building hearing mostly false teaching coming forth but I have a hard time with it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

http://www.leonard-ravenhill.com/quotes


"
“I doubt that more than two percent of professing Christians in the United States are truly born again.”

Wow, he's a lot less generous than WE are, eh? Why this Ravenhill guy must have been a cranky cultist, look at him, rejecting 98% of all professing Christians in America. He just sent 98 percent of ALL BELIEVERS TO HELL. He couldn't possibly be right, eh?

One correction: Ravenhill doesn't condemn "98%" of ALL BELIEVERS to hell, but "professing Christians", that's a massive distinction. Perhaps you don't see that.

[Michael The Disciple]

I have read Ravenhill since 1975 and enjoyed his teaching on holiness. I read Sodom Had No Bible that you mentioned. He was one of my Preacher heros.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have read Ravenhill since 1975 and enjoyed his teaching on holiness. I read Sodom Had No Bible that you mentioned. He was one of my Preacher heros.

So do you think he was saved?

[Michael The Disciple]

Jason,

As I am reading these posts I am listening to Paltalk.com. In the Christian section there are usually 60-70 rooms going on most of then ran by Evangelicals. Even as I am writing I am hearing them condemn to Hell whoever is not Evangelical.

If any religous group could be called out for "sectarianism" it would be them. Just as you perceive Oneness people judging Trins into Hell over the deity of Christ I hear it constantly not just over Oneness but over anything that does not confess the Trinity.

Do you feel sorry for the Jehovah Witnesses? They seem far more diligent to me than Evangelicals. They actually witness and are committed to laboring for Christ.

And yet the Trins cast them into Hell daily. Why? Because they dont accept the Trinity. Evangelicals meanwhile who are fine with celebrating pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter think JW's teach salvation by works.

Do you think Jehovah Witness will go to Hell? Do they not confess that Jesus is the Son of God? Do they not teach repentance? So what is the basis in your opinion that they should be thrown into Hell while the Evangelical will enter Heaven?

[Michael The Disciple]

Jason,

Here is one of your teachers you seem to hold in high esteem. Please listen to him.