Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

You are correct in stating that ”everything that has been created on earth has a beginning, and an end,” however, that is NOT the manner in which God intended for things to be at their creation!

Exactly. Only since SIN do we have an end.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly. Only since SIN do we have an end.

So God didn't know man would sin?

Tell me this: from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and
fills eternity, where was the heavens (the universe) before being created... and where has the universe been placed? Is it somewhere in eternity?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

You are correct in stating that ”everything that has been created on earth has a beginning, and an end,” however, that is NOT the manner in which God intended for things to be at their creation!
Your comment stating that ”Even those things that seem permanent are slowly dying,” seems to fit right in with your previous statements wherein you allude to the fact that, in your opinion, the heavens and the earth that God created began to decay the very moment He spoke them into existence! That’s equivalent to saying that everything God created, He intended it to be only “temporary,” and that is simply inane at best but actually displays your lack of understanding the righteousness of God and His perfection! Psalm 145:17 clearly states that "The LORD is righteous in ALL his ways, and HOLY IN ALL HIS WORKS>"
As I have already pointed out to you, if you had but taken the time to read it you should have recognized its scriptural veracity, the words of Genesis 3:17 plainly reveals that in God’s imposing the penalty of the death upon Adam's body (and subsequently ALL mankind through his “seed”), a significant “part and parcel” of that judgment included His “cursing” the very earth which He had previously created as “perfect,” just as He had done in “forming” Adam’s “perfect” body! Both the earth and Adam’s body became corrupt and from that very moment began the slow process of dying, however, THAT was NOT the manner in which either began their existence!
You certainly appear to take lots of liberty in interpreting the language of the Bible to suit your preconceived idea of things!
Where does the language of the Bible state that “man believes with his spirit, repents with his soul, and obeys with his body”? The only part of such a statement that possesses even the slightest “hint” of truth to it is that part wherein you write man ”repents with his soul.”
Do you even know what the “soul” of man is? Is it not that eternal (immortal) invisible element of every human being which God created “in His image”? Is it not the only part of every human being that is capable of conscious thought, therefore the only part of man that is even capable of repenting and obeying God’s commandments? Surely the human body possesses NO such ability!
Is not the “spirit” of man that “breath of life” which our “body” inhales at the moment of our birth? Surely you’re not stating that the “breath” of man has the ability of conscious thought!
Does not man’s “spirit” belong to God, for it is He who gives it, and it is He who explicitly stated in the words of Genesis 6:3 that He will not always allow it to strive with man, and this because man is not only a “soul” which He created after His likeness, but he is also flesh wherein His “spirit” (aka “breath of life”) resides, and that because of the judgment of death which He imposed upon it must, at some moment in time, perish?
Did not Solomon write that at the moment of man's death "the spirit shall return to God who gave it"? (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God did NOT "give" man a "soul," rather He created man as a soul, places that soul in a body which He forms, and then at its birth, GIVES it His "spirit" ("breath of life"). Those are biblical facts!!

"that is NOT the manner in which God intended"
If that's not what God intended, why did it turn out that way?

I try to answer all threads point-by-point: please answer me this...

Tell me this: from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and
fills eternity, where was the heavens (the universe) before being created... and where has
the universe been placed? Is it somewhere in eternity, or outside of eternity?

(Personally, I believe the universe is surrounded by eternity.)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

So God didn't know man would sin?

Of course he knew. But your question implies that KNOWING man would sin moved GOD TO CREATE MAN in a situation based upon the fact he would sin. And the bible does not teach that. Show me where God created and placed man according to foreknowledge man would sin.

Tell me this: from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and
fills eternity, where was the heavens (the universe) before being created... and where has the universe been placed? Is it somewhere in eternity?

Eternity is not a place. Do you mean timewise? The universe was made from nothing.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Of course he knew. But your question implies that KNOWING man would sin moved GOD TO CREATE MAN in a situation based upon the fact he would sin. And the bible does not teach that. Show me where God created and placed man according to foreknowledge man would sin.
Eternity is not a place. Do you mean timewise? The universe was made from nothing.

To first answer your question: on which "day" did God create man...and on which "day"
did God establish Grace? You folks must understand, that God is not reactionary: else He
could in no way be God! Either He IS God with a Perfect Plan, or not God!

"The universe was made from nothing". "...the worlds were framed by the word of God...".
Now if God fills eternity, then the universe must be in God?
"You mean time wise?" No. Eternity is timeless.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

To first answer your question: on which "day" did God create man...and on which "day"
did God establish Grace? You folks must understand, that God is not reactionary: else He
could in no way be God! Either He IS God with a Perfect Plan, or not God!

"The universe was made from nothing". "...the worlds were framed by the word of God...".
Now if God fills eternity, then the universe must be in God?

What has that got to do with God creating man in a certain situation BECAUSE he knew man would sin?

[mfblume]

God knew man would sin. Yes. But His perfect plan is not being abrogated. Man is being returned to the original position God placed Adam in before the fall. As Lafon said, it was a perfect situation without death, because God said it was VERY GOOD.

You noted that God is not reactionary. You actually contradicted your own hypothesis by saying that, though. You are claiming He would not have created man in the situation on earth that He did if He foreknew man would NOT sin. So He created by His foreknowledge of man's sin, when that cannot be the case.

God made man in the way and situation He did , and did not do so as the result of knowing man would sin. The foreknowledge of man's sin did not take God back, obviously. It did not make Him do things differently if reality was that sin would not occur and He knew it. He just had a means of restoring man perfectly back to the prefall status in which He made man.

If the absence of future sin was the reality, as we know it isn't obviously, God would not have created man in any different situation than He did. That's the only way we can define VERY GOOD and the only way to read the Word and follow God's will without adding to the word with speculation. It's Occam's Razor in full force.

We have to believe that God's situation for Adam was sub-par for us to think we are not being returned to that position. But God said it was very good. Did God resort to PLAN B because PLAN A was not good enough? If man's destiny is different from man's situation in prefall times, then there are TWO PLANS of God which implies failure on His part the first time. Or, the only other conclusion is that God is reactionary which you admit cannot be the case.

With all due respect, brother, you are insisting on your hypothesis for the sake of upholding your belief that man is not intended to live forever on this earth free of death. You should be considering the points Lafon and I pointed out with the thought of why God put man in the situation He did, and what the Word described it as, rather than focusing on retaining your current belief of man's future. Your focus is on your belief instead of the actual Word presented to us. I know you claim you got your belief from the Word, but you are not focusing solely on it in the record of Genesis 1-2 in this instance. You're remaining conscious of your need to not be wrong in your belief of man's destiny.

You still never told us where man will exist physically forever. Why is that?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after
the similitude of Adam's transgression..."

Prior to Moses and the Law, man died because of Adam: once the Law was in place, man died by transgressing the Law.

I do not believe that is the full truth of the passage.

Rom 5:12-14 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

It is easy to miss something here. I did! The reason he says sin is not imputed when there is no law is not to say no law existed before the Law of Moses. It is telling us that the people before Law of Moses were sinners, and that cannot be the case if there was no law. SO, THERE WAS A LAW OF SOME SORT. After all, Adam transgressed! There had to have been a law for him to do that!

There was an offence before Moses' Law, which means Adam violated a law. He broke the command to not eat of the forbidden fruit.

So the point is there must have been a law before Moses' law.

[mfblume]

Getting back to more about what this thread is about...

Some say Adam's crooked nature alone is passed down to us but that we are not dying because of Adam's sin as though his transgression was ours. If Adam's transgression was not counted as ours, and we don't die because of Adam's sin, then the opposite in Christ must be considered. This makes Christ the one whose ACT DOES NOT MAKE US RIGHTEOUS. If Adam's act did not make us sinners, then the opposite must be true with Christ. His act did not make us righteous and we have to work up our own righteousness! And we know that is not true. Righteousness is a blessed gift just as sin was a cursed gift. We earned neither of them.

So, if anyone here believes you're only a sinner because YOU personally sinned, then by the same token you have to believe you make yourself righteous to be saved, and you are involved in salvation by works. The concept of Christ's salvation work in making us righteous is said top be the opposite of what Adam did in Romans 5. That's what Romans 5 is about.

[Lafon]

In the beginning, when God created all things which would exist upon the earth, He established an "agent or method" whereby all such things, including mankind, would be replicated "after its own kind." This "agent or method" was the "seed."

It was the "seed" resident in the body of the very first male (Adam) by which every other human being (excepting Eve, of course, whom God created from a part of Adam's body) would be birthed, thus making Adam the progenitor of all human flesh. This is why the Hebrews writer penned the statement: "And it is appointed unto men once to die," (Hebrews 9:27) implying the judgment of death which God imposed upon Adam's flesh cannot be fulfilled until ALL human flesh perishes through death!

When Adam willfully disobeyed God's commandment and brought upon his body the curse of death, the "seed" that was resident in his body became corrupt, thereby causing any off-spring resulting from his "seed" to not only inherit the curse of death upon itself, but it also inherited Adam's propensity or tendency to commit sin against God.

This, IMHO, is what we commonly call "original sin."