Poll: Is Gods Love Unconditional

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Esaias

By the way, God hated Esau.

God offered ZERO place of mercy for the Amalekites.

God's 'hatred' itself is part of His love for his Creation.

You're talking about the consequences of temporal judgment, has nothing to do with God's ultimate love and purpose of redeeming all of the creation. God can eliminate evil from His creation without becoming evil himself, the man made evil concept of God's eternal torture of any of mankind is very evil.

Temporal judgment is for correction and ultimate redemption, not punitive punishment. When God's judgment is in the earth very good things are produced.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by seekerman

If you want a good teaching on God hating, look no further than this. If you've never listened to Jim Brown you have a 'treat' in store.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4QL9FNlniU

Human distortion of God!!! Always makes God out to be an evil monster!!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Where do you get this?

If anything happened before we were ever born it was the choosing of the elect.

11 (For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated . Rom. 9:11-13

God did chose us before we were ever born on an unconditional basis. This is the only context where the term "unmerited favor" applies. It was based on nothing that we did. We were not even born.

It was going to be according to the purpose of God. He decided before the world began to draw certain ones to himself. He also decided not to draw certain others. Jacob he loved before he was born. Esau he hated before he was born.

Paul continues:

14 What shall we say then ? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid . 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion . 16 So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth , but of God that sheweth mercy . Romans 9:14-16

Note God does not say he will have compassion and mercy on everyone but rather upon whom he will. Paul defends God by saying there is nothing wrong with that. Paul shows us why God is just in doing it that way.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up , that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth . 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom. 9:17-21

Paul reasons since God made the vessels he has the right to do whatever he wants with them. Some he makes for honor others for dishonor. This is called "the sovereignty of God".

So our calling or drawing to God is unconditional in that its based soley on the will of God. As Paul said "who has resisted his will"?

He continues

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom. 9:22-24

Rather than loving all mankind in the mothers womb some are prepared as vessels fitted to destruction. Paul said God is willing to show his wrath and make his power known unto the vessels of mercy.

So it seems we can say Gods love is unconditional in the drawing of the elect. He draws they come. He has willed it to be so. And yet when they do come he then sets out conditions for his love.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:9-10

The condition he presents to us is if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. It isn't that hard to see but I admit its much different than many have been taught.

The true God is love. But his love is nowhere I know of without condition except before we were born.

Tell me why God needs to create humans for destruction to show His love to the elect, as you and many other define the elect???

At least you don't believe God is the monster that torments forever. I give you great credit, for knowing the traditional definition of Hell is not possible of a God that is love.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Esaias

. . .

God's 'hatred' itself is part of His love for his Creation.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Yes God choose those before the world began according to his will. However his will is based on justice toward man. Not just oh... hmmm him her... uh him. God chose those based on his seeing how things came about and his reaction to man and his free will BEFORE it happned. It is the natural process of imagination and the resulting actuality and occurence of events. so yes Pharoah was set before the world began as a vessel of destruction BUT Pharoah was a result of his own free will. God knew before creation and it's events how and why things wold transpire. By God know the best result possible the elect destiny of everyone was agreed to. In reality unconditional love has nothing to do with election of predestination. God gave his son because some would turn to him. By simple numbers and foreknowledge.

Great effort to excuse God, the creator, and blame the created!!! Human definition of the all powerful, all knowing God, that IS LOVE, is so distorted it swells the brain of mere humans.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

. . . God can eliminate evil from His creation without becoming evil himself, . . .

And if God did become evil, how could we tell?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

And if God did become evil, how could we tell?

Some would say, if God does it, it cannot be evil.

I would say, God will not do evil, because He is righteous, holy and love.

So, when men credit action to God that is evil, then it is not His action, or else it is truly not evil.

There are consequences of men's actions that bring about dreadful harvests, however, God's response will ultimately bring about man's redemption.

God is the Creator, and therefore He has full responsibility for the end results of the creation. Because He is love, it will ultimately be good for all.

[Aquila]

God is ultimately responsible for His creation. And in my opinion... that's why God chose to bear mankind's sin upon Himself at the cross. Now, God has paid the price for sin... Himself. However, a person must appropriate that salvation by believing the Gospel. The responsible parties (God and man) must be reconciled.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Some would say, if God does it, it cannot be evil.

I would say, God will not do evil, because He is righteous, holy and love.

So, when men credit action to God that is evil, then it is not His action, or else it is truly not evil.

There are consequences of men's actions that bring about dreadful harvests, however, God's response will ultimately bring about man's redemption.

God is the Creator, and therefore He has full responsibility for the end results of the creation. Because He is love, it will ultimately be good for all.

Are you saying that if God did something that, if a human had done it, it would be evil, then God did something evil?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Are you saying that if God did something that, if a human had done it, it would be evil, then God did something evil?

Sometimes, something is "sin" because it is a human being doing that which is only permissible for God to do. For example, partaking in the fruit of the knowledge of both good and evil was a sin for Adam and Eve; but knowing good and evil isn't a sin for God. God can properly apply said knowledge.

Murder is a sin. It is man choosing when another man has the right to live or die. This is God's right alone.

So yes, in many circumstances God can do things that would be evil for a man to do.