Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Most of the places I look simply say "have long hair." You may have provided your link before--it seems like you provided an alternative definition one time. I can't recall. However, all the general definitions are pretty vague. To "have long hair" isn't the same thing as "to have uncut hair." You can into the "how long is long" debate, and decide that uncut is the safest interpretation of that, but I think it's a shame to make this such a point of contention when in fact it's just the "safest interpretation." IMO, the things in scripture that are the most important are very clear. There's no ambiguity in "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Why would God be ambiguous about something that affects a woman's salvation, and why did it only become important to the New Testament church? Why wasn't it important from the beginning?

From Strong's Lexicon:

2863. komao kom-ah'-o from 2864; to wear tresses of hair:--have long hair.

2864. kome kom'-ay apparently from the same as 2865; the hair of the head (locks, as ornamental, and thus differing from 2359; which properly denotes merely the scalp):--hair.

I also get a little bogged down with Jewish thought and tradition on this topic. Even orthodox Jews (women) can cut their hair as long as they cover their heads with a veil, hat or wig. It seems so odd that their Jehovah doesn't expect the same things from them as "our Jesus."

The majority of lexicons give 'to let her hair grow.'

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

What a nonsense can one find on this forum!

And where do you go to church?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

That is your assertion, but I don't see that it's really supported. Do you have anything else to support your opinion other than just your understanding of it?

"If" is the word "Ei" and according to the lexicon means "if" or "whether." Not even close to "since" or even "because."

FTR, and I feel like I have to say this in these discussions--I'm not personally invested in cutting my own hair. I've never minded my hair being long, although there are the occasional Sundays when I get mad at it and wish I had the same pixie cut my Aunt Lola had so I could just slap on a little hat and walk out the door. That said, I just think there is so much intellectual obfuscation on this topic. I don't get why it's so important, and the "Holy Magic Hair" hullabaloo that's taught by Lee Stoneking, Ruth Rieder-Harvey and others is appallingly bad doctrine. I know you don't agree with their teachings, and I respect you for rejecting them. IMO, that stuff was fabricated in order to give women some sort of noble reason to not cut their hair, and it's manipulative. I can respect simple obedience a loboth ot more. At this point, I think enough damage has been done by their writings that if they were denounced or retracted, women would cut their hair because the motivation would be gone. That also strikes me as selfish--as if obedience to something found in God's Word is only worth the effort if there's some big payoff at the end.

I can understand pushing for short hair on men and long hair on women. The passage actually uses those words. I just don't understand the emphasis on completely uncut. To me, it would make more sense of men were forbidden to ever wear hats in any circumstance--as that would constitute a covering--and also that they must shave their heads, because that seems to be the extreme opposite of a woman not cutting one hair or portion of hair off her head.

I have denounced the so-called magic hair teaching both on forums and in the pulpit.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Strong's concordance
komé: hair
Original Word: κόμη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: komé
Phonetic Spelling: (kom'-ay)
Short Definition: hair, long hair
Definition: hair, long hair.

1. Where is your reference for "let it grow"

2. Paul said the covering is only required during PRAYER or PROPHESYING. That in itself makes it OBVIOUS that the covering is something that can be donned on just before PRAYER or PROPHESYING.

3. Paul is using LONG hair to support his argument for artificial covering. Let's read it again:

1 Cor 11
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Paul is using NATURE (naturally, women's hair are longer than that of men) to PROVE to the Corinthians that their women ought to cover their heads. This is the simple English of the text.


This is such a cop out. You are the one who keeps sentencing everyone who does not believe like you do to hell. You should at least be able to preach to us sinners what we must do to be saved.

But to your question, These are Jesus' own words:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now, can you tell us the list to escape hell...

Strongs is a primer not a lexicon and the majority of lexicons say 'let her hair grow."
So are you saying a saved person cannot be lost or unconditional eternal security?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I have denounced the so-called magic hair teaching both on forums and in the pulpit.

Yes, I know (because you've said so in the past). I said that in my post. Did you read it?

My question is this: Do you really believe that any woman who trims her hair is lost? Or do you believe that any woman in YOUR assembly who trims her hair is lost? There's a big difference between the two.

Do you make a mental or verbal concession for women who wear veils, hats or other coverings? It does seem like the passage allows for that, even assuming you are right in your interpretation 100%.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Only one question for you:

1 Cor 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

How do you explain the emboldened?

Very simple ladies were coming in the church from that cult in Corinth where they bobbed the women's hair and Paul was telling the church let them worship the Lord with short hair since their hair was growing. Very simple.Let her be covered means to let her hair grow.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Strongs is a primer not a lexicon and the majority of lexicons say 'let her hair grow."
So are you saying a saved person cannot be lost or unconditional eternal security?

The definitions I posted were based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible dictionary--using Strong's numbers to pull the entry.

"Bibliography Information
Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Komao". "The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon". . 1999."

What lexicons do you use?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Yes, I know (because you've said so in the past). I said that in my post. Did you read it?

My question is this: Do you really believe that any woman who trims her hair is lost? Or do you believe that any woman in YOUR assembly who trims her hair is lost? There's a big difference between the two.

Do you make a mental or verbal concession for women who wear veils, hats or other coverings? It does seem like the passage allows for that, even assuming you are right in your interpretation 100%.

The scriptures teach a woman who cuts her hair cannot worship in a NT assembly-she cannot pray-she cannot prophecy. So women who cut their hair will be lost.

For the rest of you back on FCF we discussed this subject nearly without end. Newman was the best y'all had and Sabellius shreded her. He point by point rebuttled her until she went into hiding. You guys couldn't even hold her notebook. She was very smart but wrong. I am not going to rehash all the same stuff over and over. I just couldn't let this pass without commenting.

Y'all go find a good Apostolic church and try to be saved.

[Cindy]

I don't believe there is any power in hair, short, long, or medium. And I don't believe long = uncut.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Strongs is a primer not a lexicon and the majority of lexicons say 'let her hair grow."
So are you saying a saved person cannot be lost or unconditional eternal security?

I did not say anything. I simply quoted Jesus' own words. It's quite direct, huh?

So instead of diverting the question, can you tell us the LIST to be saved?