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View Poll Results: What are your freelings the son's pre-existence?
I think the son existed only in the plan of God before the incarnation. 14 41.18%
I don't thing the son existed at all before the incarnation. 5 14.71%
I think that the son existed in some manner with the Father before the incarnation. 11 32.35%
None of these explain my feelings. I will comment below. 4 11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:44 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Splain that please how did the BODY become flesh?
How did the Word become flesh??? I don't know. Scripture doesn't explain the HOW. The term body throws in too many differing conotations to be useful in this discussion so I don't think anyone really used it other than to try and talk in your language (thus Micheal's quotes around "body").

So if you insist on saying they are calling the Word a BODY then you are arguing against something they don't believe. That they tried to accomodate your language into their explanation without seeing the full implications of such should not be held against them.
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  #102  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:46 AM
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

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Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
LOL. They shoulda said it was a temp body that vaporized.
yea Would have saved alot of time and nitpicking
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  #103  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:15 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
What happened to this permanent body?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Splain that please how did the BODY become flesh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
LOL. They shoulda said it was a temp body that vaporized.
I'm not sure I understand what your question is.

But based on what I think you're asking:

God appeared to men of the old testament as a man temporarily (Abraham, Jacob, etc)

He did not become one of us until the incarnation, at which time he tabernacled among us in flesh.
And now, the visible expression of the invisible God is the person of Jesus Christ.

Remember: No man hath seen God at any time, but the only begotten of the Father, he hath declared him.

Who did Paul see on his way to damascus? Was it not Jesus
Who did Steven see when he was being stoned? Was it not Jesus

The very WORD of God, who appeared visibly in the OT was made flesh in the NT.

1 Tim 6
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So I'm not exactly sure what body you guys keep referring to...

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
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  #104  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:24 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
How did the Word become flesh??? I don't know. Scripture doesn't explain the HOW. The term body throws in too many differing conotations to be useful in this discussion so I don't think anyone really used it other than to try and talk in your language (thus Micheal's quotes around "body").

So if you insist on saying they are calling the Word a BODY then you are arguing against something they don't believe. That they tried to accomodate your language into their explanation without seeing the full implications of such should not be held against them.
Very simple the word planted a sperm in Mary's womb. How do you plant a BODY(note the same body which is seen as a man)in Mary's womb? What does pemanent meant to you? In the words of Rush "words" mean something.
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  #105  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:25 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
I'm not sure I understand what your question is.

But based on what I think you're asking:

God appeared to men of the old testament as a man temporarily (Abraham, Jacob, etc)

He did not become one of us until the incarnation, at which time he tabernacled among us in flesh.
And now, the visible expression of the invisible God is the person of Jesus Christ.

Remember: No man hath seen God at any time, but the only begotten of the Father, he hath declared him.

Who did Paul see on his way to damascus? Was it not Jesus
Who did Steven see when he was being stoned? Was it not Jesus

The very WORD of God, who appeared visibly in the OT was made flesh in the NT.

1 Tim 6
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So I'm not exactly sure what body you guys keep referring to...

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
You are backing off of what you originally said which I applaud you. Either is was a permanent body or wasn't. That is the question?
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  #106  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:39 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
You are backing off of what you originally said which I applaud you. Either is was a permanent body or wasn't. That is the question?
Could you please quote where I originally talked about a permanent body of some sort. That way, I'll understand better what you're talking about.
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  #107  
Old 11-10-2011, 12:30 PM
seekerman seekerman is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

His body changed after death, just as ours will, and He rejoined His Father and God.
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  #108  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:32 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
To teach that God created a permanent form of some kind in eternity is actually Arianism. Here is the question I ask all folks who believe this.
"What happened to that body at the incarnation?"

Should be simple. Good luck. Micheal has never been able to answer that so I am waiting?
No Arianism is the teaching that Christ was a pre-existing secondary person/divine being, lessor in power than God, created before Creation.

It was not a physical body either
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #109  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:35 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
Yeah.

I'm sure that the quote above makes all the sense in the world to you but it's all circular reasoning to me.
If it's circular reasoning then prove it is.

And yes it makes sense.

God is Eternal. God is God Himself, Yahweh.

God became the Son when God was incarnate.

Thus the Son pre-existed as God Himself not as God the Son. That is as simple as simple can get and that is not circular reasoning. That is linear reasoning

Please prove that was circular reasoning
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:35 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Posts: 45,791
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
I'm pretty sure they are saying that body became flesh... Of course that's a relatively simple explanation since neither of them really use the term body to describe the Word.
correct. Eply used the word body, they used the word form
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
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