If Salvation is a absolute free gift..

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by JamDat

There is nothing that you would even be able to start to do to "repay" the gift of salvation. In fact to even try is the sin of pride among others.

Salvation is a exchange and scripture teaches it is a purchase.

Give up all and come and follow me and you receive eternal life. If not you are not worthy of me.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/purchase

1 a archaic : gain, acquire b : to acquire (real estate) by means other than descent c : to obtain by paying money or its equivalent : buy d : to obtain by labor, danger, or sacrifice

To say we do not purchase salvation would be to negate what Christ did in itself and say his act did not obtain salvation for us in which he could offer it. We would also have to ignore his words. The word "purchase" is a term which in general denotes a exchange of value between at least two parties. On one side we stand wanting to obtain "eternal life" like the rich young ruler and on the other side is the man of whom holds all eternity and all that we seek to obtain thus HE is the source or author of it. He asks to do His commandments and to leave all and follow Him. A price must be paid to receive his offering. To obtain the legal transaction or purchase you must deny thyself of family and everything you have which is faith that he is faithful to do what he said. Notice it's not a transaction of not just one moment but that of a lifetime. Christ gives "conditions" of "if" in many places. Example: John 15:4-15 and and many others. To have condtions it is not free in the ultimate sense of no cost. It is freely given to those that accept the conditions.

Christ did us a favor(Grace) he chose to die on a cross because he loved us. So that he could provide a offering/provision or also termed "the gift" of salvation. This is "offered" to all freely who choose to give up all(sacrifice) and follow him. It is free as he is no respect of persons which has been true from the beginning. I could go through all the parables of Jesus that clearly teach this but I think you understand. Yes, he did obtain the rights to judge and be our justice(righteousness) for us but because he has that doesn't mean we have obtained salvation or eternal life in fullness. As Christ said a person must count the cost "before hand"! In the end he will judge every man according to what he has done or not and will judge you faithful to the purchase price or not. As the complete reality is not known until he says "Well done thou good and faith"ful" servant." Salvation is a cost required not a gift forced. It's not cheap!

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Socialite

John 6: 28-29 ~ "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent."

Believing is even God's work... that's something to chew on for awhile.

But in a grander perspective, the Spirit helps us believe. Is there room in our theology for saying people can resist God's Grace? Sure... I think so. But let's be clear, that we can't even get credit, and prop ourselves up for believing. It's a comical picture when the God of the Universe comes in flesh, puts a cross on His back, extends love to us and we proudly smile like we didn't something grand, in accepting and believing His work for us was enough.

The work of God is that we might believe on Him. It is ultimately our choice. He chooses us and draws us, but we have to respond. I stand by Jacob Arminius. Calvinism displaces human response. Yes God draws but He draws every man, only some respond! I've studied these doctrines in depth and Calvin, while having good intents, misses the point that each apostle, each follower of Christ, has to choose to follow him. Free will must be ours in regards to salvation, if not we are robots.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Salvation is a exchange and scripture teaches it is a purchase.

Give up all and come and follow me and you receive eternal life. If not you are not worthy of me.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/purchase

1 a archaic : gain, acquire b : to acquire (real estate) by means other than descent c : to obtain by paying money or its equivalent : buy d : to obtain by labor, danger, or sacrifice

To say we do not purchase salvation would be to negate what Christ did in itself and say his act did not obtain salvation for us in which he could offer it. We would also have to ignore his words. The word "purchase" is a term which in general denotes a exchange of value between at least two parties. On one side we stand wanting to obtain "eternal life" like the rich young ruler and on the other side is the man of whom holds all eternity and all that we seek to obtain thus HE is the source or author of it. He asks to do His commandments and to leave all and follow Him. A price must be paid to receive his offering. To obtain the legal transaction or purchase you must deny thyself of family and everything you have which is faith that he is faithful to do what he said. Notice it's not a transaction of not just one moment but that of a lifetime. Christ gives "conditions" of "if" in many places. Example: John 15:4-15 and and many others. To have condtions it is not free in the ultimate sense of no cost. It is freely given to those that accept the conditions.

Christ did us a favor(Grace) he chose to die on a cross because he loved us. So that he could provide a offering/provision or also termed "the gift" of salvation. This is "offered" to all freely who choose to give up all(sacrifice) and follow him. It is free as he is no respect of persons which has been true from the beginning. I could go through all the parables of Jesus that clearly teach this but I think you understand. Yes, he did obtain the rights to judge and be our justice(righteousness) for us but because he has that doesn't mean we have obtained salvation or eternal life in fullness. As Christ said a person must count the cost "before hand"! In the end he will judge every man according to what he has done or not and will judge you faithful to the purchase price or not. As the complete reality is not known until he says "Well done thou good and faith"ful" servant." Salvation is a cost required not a gift forced. It's not cheap!

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

To say that we do or did purchase our salvation negates what Christ did for us. You can not purchase something when you have nothing to offer. You are a worm full of sin. God want's nothing of your sin and any righteousnesses you think you might have to offer is like a filthy you know what.

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but there is a more excellent way. The gospel way. That is to not accept Jesus, but to have your eyes opened to how filthy and damned you are. Then throwing yourself at His feet for mercy praying that He will accept you. By faith knowing that he has purchased you from certain death and being born again. Christ did what the law could not do. Yes the law showed us how to be perfect, but also shows us that we can't be perfect.

So it is not a cost to me because I did not partake of the wrath of God for my sins, but Jesus did. I did nothing to earn it and can do nothing to keep it. Not to say that I should keep on keeping in my former ways, but now with eyes opened to what was done and living like I was saved by being thankful and giving glory to God in all aspects of my life. Essentially obeying the first commandment.

When I sin again (which I will do because I'm still a human) God is faithful to forgive, but He is just. How is he just? Not by forgiving me, but by the price for sining being paid in Christ. Justice means the wrath of God being poured out for my sins which i deserve. So without anything from me Jesus Christ took that wrath to pay for my sins.

You say there is a cost and you pay it (this is aimed at many not just Luke,) but do you still lie, steal, honor your father and mother, murder in your heart, commit adultery in your heart? If you answered yes to any of these then you can not possibly pay the cost of your salvation because you payment is not holy, but sinful and God will not and can not accept your payment because He is holy. You are not a good person but a wretched person.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by JamDat

To say that we do or did purchase our salvation negates what Christ did for us. You can not purchase something when you have nothing to offer.

Really.... so to give oneself to his service is not something to give? Not what Jesus said.

You are a worm full of sin. God want's nothing of your sin and any righteousnesses you think you might have to offer is like a filthy you know what.

Totally false and pointing to sin as something that has nothing to do with what is be discussed. PAST sin is that. You are not sin you are a individual who has sinned who can choose to serve God or not. Also filthy rags is not a correct context of the passage. Following God by faith which is something we choose to do is a righeous thing and not filthy.

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but there is a more excellent way. The gospel way.

I did pointed out what Jesus said that is the GOSPEL WAY!

That is to not accept Jesus, but to have your eyes opened to how filthy and damned you are. Then throwing yourself at His feet for mercy praying that He will accept you.

That is true but that is not the whole context. Also what you said does not stray from what I said.

By faith knowing that he has purchased you from certain death and being born again. Christ did what the law could not do. Yes the law showed us how to be perfect, but also shows us that we can't be perfect.

We can't be perfect by the flesh. We can be good as Zacharias and Elizabeth and considered blamess walking in the way we can but only perfection comes by the Spirit.

So it is not a cost to me because I did not partake of the wrath of God for my sins, but Jesus did.

You just went totally to a totalyl different aspect and so typical of reformed theology can't see what is said because of preconceived paradigms. I did not say you did what JEsus did. The whole point is he offers you salvation at a cost. That cost is to follow him and you will be judged in the end faithful or not to that cost.

I did nothing to earn it and can do nothing to keep it.

totally OSAS. It comes at a cost PERIOD! What you just said is heresy!

Not to say that I should keep on keeping in my former ways, but now with eyes opened to what was done and living like I was saved by being thankful and giving glory to God in all aspects of my life. Essentially obeying the first commandment.

That is all nice and everything but you are still pushing... I should do xyz but I don't have to to be saved.

When I sin again (which I will do because I'm still a human) God is faithful to forgive, but He is just.

He only forgives if you repent of sin and humble yourself to him for forgiveness.

How is he just? Not by forgiving me, but by the price for sining being paid in Christ. Justice means the wrath of God being poured out for my sins which i deserve. So without anything from me Jesus Christ took that wrath to pay for my sins.

Justice does not mean just the wrath of God.

You say there is a cost and you pay it (this is aimed at many not just Luke,) but do you still lie, steal, honor your father and mother, murder in your heart, commit adultery in your heart?

Does a Christian continue in sin? NO! you have the typical view that we don't overcome the flesh by his Spirit. you can't have both. Either we are no longer slaves practically to sin or not. You makes us slaves to sin still which negates what truly is grace. GRace is the reality of the Spirit to overcome the flesh and live righteously not unrighteously.

If you answered yes to any of these then you can not possibly pay the cost of your salvation because you payment is not holy, but sinful and God will not and can not accept your payment because He is holy. You are not a good person but a wretched person.

Really so the person that is saved and empowered by the Spirit is a wretched person now? LOL Again you don't understand and can't deal with the simple words of Christ and don't understand the debt we must pay to receive eternal life. We are judged in the end faithful or lawless to his call. Many are called but few are chosen. Why? Because they where not faithful to the pledge from the heart to give up all and follow him. Lukewarm did they follow and have faith to do many things but as the church of Ephesus he will have things against them and be cast out.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

What question?

I asked it three times. lol

...the moment and very SECOND I was saved before I did any works I was ready for glory...

Do you agree with what I emboldened?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I asked it three times. lol

...the moment and very SECOND I was saved before I did any works I was ready for glory...

Do you agree with what I emboldened?

I have answered it. It depends on whatyou mean by works as I have pointed out to onefaith. To follow Christ and his leading is to do according to the context of what he said is something we do. Repentance is a turning from all to reliance on him and his work he wants to perform in us. That is something you do and consider unto baptism and being united with Christ to be in covenant. Is it covenant works? No necessarily it is loving God so yes a work is done! Baptism is something we do by faith... Receiving the Spirit is by faith. You do something righteous to be considered right of heart mike before God responds with his promises and work. We humble ourselves. Is that a necessity before salvation? Yes! Is that something we do? Yes! Again it is what you consider "works" within what Paul is talking about vs simple responding. To throw out the word "works" is like saying everyone has the same belief and context of what "faith" is. It has been argued forever just as whatisthe context of works. We are saved by his WORK/GRACE in us. Do we respond to receive? YEs but is work in us saves us. Ephesians is a isolate view of works not a full comprehensive view of faithful response.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I have answered it. It depends on whatyou mean by works as I have pointed out to onefaith.

I have not seen your answer. A simple yes or not will do. As soon as a person is saved, having done no good deeds or served Christ in any manner, just followed the plan of salvation, IS THAT PERSON READY FOR GLORY AT THAT MOMENT?

To follow Christ and his leading is to do according to the context of what he said is something we do.

We do that AFTER we are initially saved, right?

Repentance is a turning from all to reliance on him and his work he wants to perform in us. That is something you do and consider unto baptism and being united with Christ to be in covenant. Is it covenant works? No necessarily it is loving God so yes a work is done! Baptism is something we do by faith... Receiving the Spirit is by faith.

I am not interested at this point in all the details of what is a work and in what way is it a work. I just want to know if you believe someone who has obeyed Acts 2:38 and has done nothing else is ready for glory AT THAT POINT or not.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I have not seen your answer. A simple yes or not will do. As soon as a person is saved, having done no good deeds or served Christ in any manner, just followed the plan of salvation, IS THAT PERSON READY FOR GLORY AT THAT MOMENT?

I think I clearly pointed out why asking "works" is not so easy as it depends on what you mean.

We do that AFTER we are initially saved, right?

So the gospel is not about repentance(turning by faith and relyng upon Christ at the begining) in which we united with him by offering ourselves by faith in baptism and identified with him?

I am not interested at this point in all the details of what is a work and in what way is it a work. I just want to know if you believe someone who has obeyed Acts 2:38 and has done nothing else is ready for glory AT THAT POINT or not.

uh the whole point of what is a response considered and the break down of actions is the WHOLE POINT! Don't like it tough that is REALITY in accordance to ACTS 2:38 and what repentance is and how it relates to baptism and the HS. To say you are no intereted in the details is to miss the boat and th reason of how it related to your question. You want to say"work" you have to DEFINE WHAT IS MEANT! Of which I have related my thoughts. ACTS 2:38 = saved does it include works? DEFINE WORKS! I HAVE!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I think I clearly pointed out why asking "works" is not so easy as it depends on what you mean.




So the gospel is not about repentance(turning by faith and relyng upon Christ at the begining) in which we united with him by offering ourselves by faith in baptism and identified with him?





uh the whole point of what is a response considered and the break down of actions is the WHOLE POINT! Don't like it tough that is REALITY in accordance to ACTS 2:38 and what repentance is and how it relates to baptism and the HS. To say you are no intereted in the details is to miss the boat and th reason of how it related to your question. You want to say"work" you have to DEFINE WHAT IS MEANT! Of which I have related my thoughts. ACTS 2:38 = saved does it include works? DEFINE WORKS! I HAVE!

Why make this so complicated? Why can't you answer me yes or no? Whatever you think the elements of Acts 2:38 are -- works or not-- that is not the point. If the person obeyed Acts 2:38 before doing anything else, are they ready for glory or not? Phew!

I am not saying it is not important to delineate what is a work and what kind of work it is. But FOR NOW, I am just asking this question for a reason. Forget the term WORKS for now. Upon fulfillment of Acts 2:38, before doing anything else, is a person ready for glory or not?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why make this so complicated? Why can't you answer me yes or no? Whatever you think the elements of Acts 2:38 are -- works or not-- that is not the point. If the person obeyed Acts 2:38 before doing anything else, are they ready for glory or not? Phew!

ACTS 2:38 = saved you know that. Also yes it does matter as that is the whole point of many. Calling it works without qualifying what is what.