Faith Without Works... - Page 11

Praxeas · #**101** 02-10-2011, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:18

The only way that we can reconcile Genesis 22:18 and Romans 4:13-17, IMO, is to understand that our faith and obedience cannot be separated.

Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

First of all this is not God saying "You shall be saved".

Second, when it comes to being forgiven or declared righteous God looks at the heart of faith. We've already discussed that. But certain promises are received only after obedience, but the are still received BY faith because the obedience was simply the faith response to a promise.

For example Abraham believed and it was accounted to Him for righteousness but Abraham did not actually possess the promised land until he obeyed and took it.

Pressing-On · #**102** 02-10-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I don't believe they can either, PO.

But it's how we view their relationship, and how we view their relationship in light of salvation. One distorts the Gospel, the other proclaims it.

Prior to Gen 22, Abram was a justified, righteous man -- righteous people obey God. Of course, we have plenty of examples of Abraham lying (sinning) and occasionally getting himself into trouble, and showing signs of disbelief too.

My obedience to the Gospel (trust in, reliance on His work done for me) is primary. I don't fear getting to the end of time and unsure of my position before God. I stand before Him now, counted righteous, called His on, adopted in the family as an heir and fully His. It's not a performance review at the end of time.

I find it interesting that Abraham was never declared to be righteous until AFTER:

1. He leaves the Ur of the Chaldees
2. Totally believed God's promise that he would make of him a great nation.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (toil as an effort or occupation, deed, doing)." James 2:18

We cannot separate our faith from obedience.

Socialite · #**103** 02-10-2011, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I find it interesting that Abraham was never declared to be righteous until AFTER:

1. He leaves the Ur of the Chaldees
2. Totally believed God's promise that he would make of him a great nation.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (toil as an effort or occupation, deed, doing)." James 2:18

We cannot separate our faith from obedience.

Pressing-On · #**104** 02-10-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

First of all this is not God saying "You shall be saved".

Second, when it comes to being forgiven or declared righteous God looks at the heart of faith. We've already discussed that. But certain promises are received only after obedience, but the are still received BY faith because the obedience was simply the faith response to a promise.

For example Abraham believed and it was accounted to Him for righteousness but Abraham did not actually possess the promised land until he obeyed and took it.

Would he have been righteous if he had not taken the land or become circumcised?

Socialite · #**105** 02-10-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Would he have been righteous if he had not taken the land or become circumcised?

Because he believed, he did. Because he was righteous, he did.

I can also point out many sins of Abraham that are found in the story. It certainly didn't mean he never screwed up

Pressing-On · #**106** 02-10-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Because he believed, he did. Because he was righteous, he did.

I can also point out many sins of Abraham that are found in the story. It certainly didn't mean he never screwed up

So, his faith caused him to obey? And without obedience he has no faith?

Praxeas · #**107** 02-10-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Would he have been righteous if he had not taken the land or become circumcised?

If he had not done what God said he would have been disobedient. Disobedience indicates the wrong kind of faith (see James again). His deeds were an indication that He had faith in God.

That was Jame's message. If Abraham lacked the works, then he must have lacked the faith...His faith then is "dead" or inactive

Pressing-On · #**108** 02-10-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If he had not done what God said he would have been disobedient. Disobedience indicates the wrong kind of faith (see James again). His deeds were an indication that He had faith in God.

That was Jame's message. If Abraham lacked the works, then he must have lacked the faith...His faith then is "dead" or inactive

Agreed!

And so I maintain that our faith cannot be separated from our obedience.

Socialite · #**109** 02-10-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

So, his faith caused him to obey? And without obedience he has no faith?

Correct.

But... this is not a position that you can read like this:

If A then B, then if B then A.

It must always start with A -- that's the Gospel. Too many believe A and B are on the same side of the equation, a confusion of cause and effect.

Yet, Abram was still with sin in his life. But I certainly wouldn't say he was an unbeliever. God saw his faith and accredited to him righteousness.

Pressing-On · #**110** 02-10-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Correct.

But... this is not a position that you can read like this:

If A then B, then if B then A.

It must always start with A -- that's the Gospel. Too many believe A and B are on the same side of the equation, a confusion of cause and effect.

Yet, Abram was still with sin in his life. But I certainly wouldn't say he was an unbeliever. God saw his faith and accredited to him righteousness.

I never said Abram was an unbeliever. All I am saying is that we can't say "If you have good faith, you will obey. If you have the wrong faith, you won't."

All you are really saying is that faith includes obedience. What is so hard about that? If you don't include obedience, you are "faith only".