Your not Oneness but rather Patripassionist

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by rawooddell

I thought that was what I said. What did you disagree with?

You said God was a man. God is deity and Man is humanity. So in effect, you said Deity is humanity. And I disagreed.

Sorry if I mistook what you said.

[rawooddell]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You said God was a man. God is deity and Man is humanity. So in effect, you said Deity is humanity. And I disagreed.

Sorry if I mistook what you said.

I used the term generally. Such as God is the Word and the Word was made Flesh. I know that technically God is Diety and not humanity. My reasoning was from Jesus being both.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SRM

Patripassionism is a Christian heresy from the time of the early church. Its adherents believe that God the Father was incarnate and suffered on the cross. This is problematic in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity because the Christian Scriptures record Jesus Christ as speaking to God the Father while he was on the cross. It is also problematic for all those who hold to the impassibility and immutability of the divine, as it implies that God the Father can suffer. Patripassionism began in the third century AD. Patripassionism is also known as Sabellianism (after its founder Sabellius) and modalistic Monarchianism. It was more popular than dynamic Monarchianism.

Sabellius, the founder, was a priest who was excommunicated from the Church by Pope Callixtus I in 220 and lived in Rome. Sabellius made the belief more sophisticated. Sabellius advanced the doctrine of the “economic Trinity” and he opposed the Orthodox doctrine of the “essential Trinity”. Praxeus and Noetus were some major followers who are attributed to saying that God the Father became his own Son. Tertullian was the chief opponent of Patripassionism. Praxeus tried to reconcile the unity of persons by making distinction between Christ the Father and the Son, a mere man. Therefore the Father co-suffers with the human Jesus.

Patripassionism states that there is only one person, instead of three in the Godhead. God reveals himself in three modes, the father as the creator and lawgiver, the Son as the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the giver of grace and the regenerator. The word Patripassionism means (patri) Father (pasion) suffers. Patripassionists believe the father was born of the Virgin Mary, lived, and co-suffered with the human Jesus on the cross. Patripassionism states that the Son was the Father in a different mode and that whatever happened to the Son happened to the Father. Sabelliunism denies that there is a trinity and that instead there is one essence, interchangeable as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, each appearing at different periods of time, not existing together. Scripture used to support this position are passages like John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” and John 14:9, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.” Today Oneness Pentecostalism shares the same beliefs as Patripassionism. Sabellianism gains attractiveness from its emphasis on there being one and only one God.

Patripassionism was a onesided accusation;. Praxeas was accused of patripassionism but we never had his own words to evaluate if that is what he really taught.

Tertullian accused Praxeas of teaching "the Father came and Himself died on the cross".

As opposed to the idea that the Father (not the Father of the Son but of creation) himself became the Son, a different mode from the Father and as the Son died.

Im a little confused by the point of this thread...the author said "Today Oneness Pentecostalism shares the same beliefs as Patripassionism. Sabellianism gains attractiveness from its emphasis on there being one and only one God."

Arguing that Oneness Pentecostalism is essentially patripassionism, yet his title says "Your (sic) not Oneness but rather Patripassionist"

Begs the question, what is Oneness?

Oneness, since the inception of the Pentecostal movement in the last century, was a "trinitarian" theology that denied the Father, Son and Spirit were distinct PERSONS yet maintained Jesus is God incarnate. Father, Son and Spirit were seen more as manifestations of one Personal Deity. Jesus, the name, was seen as the name for Father,Son and Spirit.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SRM

Patripassionism is a Christian heresy from the time of the early church. Its adherents believe that God the Father was incarnate and suffered on the cross. This is problematic in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity because the Christian Scriptures record Jesus Christ as speaking to God the Father while he was on the cross. It is also problematic for all those who hold to the impassibility and immutability of the divine, as it implies that God the Father can suffer. Patripassionism began in the third century AD. Patripassionism is also known as Sabellianism (after its founder Sabellius) and modalistic Monarchianism. It was more popular than dynamic Monarchianism.

Sabellius, the founder, was a priest who was excommunicated from the Church by Pope Callixtus I in 220 and lived in Rome. Sabellius made the belief more sophisticated. Sabellius advanced the doctrine of the “economic Trinity” and he opposed the Orthodox doctrine of the “essential Trinity”. Praxeus and Noetus were some major followers who are attributed to saying that God the Father became his own Son. Tertullian was the chief opponent of Patripassionism. Praxeus tried to reconcile the unity of persons by making distinction between Christ the Father and the Son, a mere man. Therefore the Father co-suffers with the human Jesus.

Patripassionism states that there is only one person, instead of three in the Godhead. God reveals himself in three modes, the father as the creator and lawgiver, the Son as the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the giver of grace and the regenerator. The word Patripassionism means (patri) Father (pasion) suffers. Patripassionists believe the father was born of the Virgin Mary, lived, and co-suffered with the human Jesus on the cross. Patripassionism states that the Son was the Father in a different mode and that whatever happened to the Son happened to the Father. Sabelliunism denies that there is a trinity and that instead there is one essence, interchangeable as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, each appearing at different periods of time, not existing together. Scripture used to support this position are passages like John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” and John 14:9, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.” Today Oneness Pentecostalism shares the same beliefs as Patripassionism. Sabellianism gains attractiveness from its emphasis on there being one and only one God.

BTW if Sabellius taught an economic Trinity then he was not a patripassionist. Do you have evidence Sabellius was a Patripassionist?

Oh Patripassionists don't believe Jesus "co suffered" with another person that was a human named Jesus.

Patripassionism does not teach 2 persons, one God and one Human. It taught that the Son was the Father Himself.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SRM

No..I am not Oneness..I believe there is only One God, the Father,He gave His only begotten who was the perfect sinless Son of God born of Mary to die for the sins of the world.Jesus never claimed to be God,yet people try and make Him so..

Exactly. I appreciate you making this distinction that others here won't. SRM is not Oneness. He is more in line with "Biblical Unitarianism"...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by rawooddell

I used the term generally. Such as God is the Word and the Word was made Flesh. I know that technically God is Diety and not humanity. My reasoning was from Jesus being both.

Thanks!

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

i am oneness ,, in am dont believe the isaiah passage says the son was god anyhwere in it . it says his name shall be called ,, big difference.

this has been an intersting post tho. prax and bro . blume believe god died on cross as they say both are god ,wait a minute they are onees but BOTH are god hhmmm. BOTH = 2 dont it?

If you are Oneness, then you believe that the only "Person" in the godhead is Jesus Christ, who is seated at the "right hand of God" while at the same time continually interceding for us with His own blood as the sin offering in the holy of holies "made without hands".
Of the hundreds of apostolics I know, not ONE believes the doctrine of patripassionism. On the other hand, I have yet to meet anyone that embraces the trinity that believes there are "three gods". Trinity believers do believe that the three they describe in the godhead as being co-equal and co-eternal. That is impossible, since it was the flesh...the Son of man, who died. And God is a Spirit. When Jesus died on the cross saying it is "finished", the Father did not die. No true Oneness person believes that.
Oneness folks are unfairly slimed with believing Patripassionism and labeled as "Jesus Only", by people that clearly do not understand the dual nature of the God/man, Jesus Christ. We have no other way to the Father but through He who intercedes continually as our High Priest in the tabernacle made "without hands". Some Oneness folk (incl preachers) are reluctant to use the term "Son of God", because it sounds too (subjectively) trinitarian. However, Jesus Christ was as Wesley described Him, "veiled in flesh, the godhead see...". He was the human representation of God on the earth. God (the Spirit) was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. There IS a distinction between the Son and the Father. The Son was flesh with a human will that needed to die (and did so in the Garden of Gesthemane)...and he "became perfect through the things which He suffered". The Father (or God) is perfect and never needed perfecting...and His holiness sure didn't require HIM to die! The shedding of blood is required because of universal human unholiness/sin!
The point here is that it took a perfect man, the Lord Jesus, to give imperfect people the gift of salvation. His human-ness was subject to temptations to sin and self-will ("nevertheless not my will, but Thine be done"), by which things our Perfect and Holy God (or Father, if you please) is unaffected.
I could be mistaken and if I am, forgive me, but I believe Bro. Blume teaches that the SON of God died on the cross, which is what the Bible clearly teaches. Humanity, a man, the flesh the Spirit of God lived in while on the earth, died on the cross. God worked through Him and shined His glory through him as the express image (the human jar of clay) of the invisible God.
I appreciate this thread! Thanks for putting up with the bloviating!

[Sabby]

The Word (not the Son) became flesh, and dwelt among us.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by SRM

The original idea of the post was to point out what I have HEARD some Oneness people teach..Jesus is the Father,You may or may not believe it like that but I know some who do.I would consider myself as a Christian Monotheist..haha..One God who is Father of all..He begot a Son in the womb of Mary in the fulness of time made under the law..Jesus never said He was God but he did tell us WHO God is..

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus came to manifest His Father and God to a world who could not approach him..

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

As far as my background?. Oneness ..

Your belief is very close to Arianism which was another so called heresy which actually spurned the Nicean Council in 325 AD.

The statement you made, mighty God is not the same as Almighty God is the same argument that Jehovah's witnesses make.

Jesus says he is the almighty in this verse
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

He is prophecied for his name to be called the Everlastin Father in Isaiah 9:6 which actually means "Father of eternity" if you read it that way.

Jesus is called the Word of God and by Him were all things made that was made
John 1:1 clarifies who Jesus is.

And God SAID let there be light.
The Word of God created.

There is no valid reason to assume that Jesus is not the ALmighty God in deity, while there is no valid reason to assume the Flesh of Christ is anyone ELSE but the Son of God, a man in which dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.