Real Life Ghost Story:

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Lol

What you’re saying is indeed the traditional take on things. However, after much study I’ve come to a different conclusion. You’re right, Jewish fables aren’t biblical and should be taken as merely fables. I’ll try to address some of your post point by point. I’m not being rude, just discussing this with you bro. Love you like a bro in Christ.



I used to believe the same thing. However, after studying the Bible I discovered that angels can and do indeed manifest them selves physically. Joseph wrested an “angel of the LORD” (theophany? Maybe). But the point is this is the angelic theophany of Jehovah God. And he indeed materialized and wrestled. You’ll notice that God was accompanied by two Holy Angels when visiting Abraham. Jehovah and these two angels sat down and ate with Abraham. The Seraphim and Cherubim are often referred to as “beasts” in prophetic writings, and indeed they have a very fearsome and animalistic side to their nature. They are “lions” for advancing God’s purposes in the earth. Please consider something about these Heavenly “beasts”. We know from the teachings of Jesus that angels do not marry… but Jesus doesn’t elaborate on what they are capable of or not. If an angel takes a physical form… it would appear that said physical form can perform any number of physical actions and biological processes such as wrestling and eating. Who’s to say that when in physical form they can’t do more than wrestle and eat? Implication would demand that there is the possibility that an angel in physical form can copulate. Back to “beasts”… earthly beasts do not marry. And there are very intelligent animals on earth. The African Grey parrot can have the vocabulary and communication ability of a 5 year old child. Monkeys can carry on simple conversation using sign language. Dolphins are extremely intelligent. All are “beasts” all don’t marry… but all are capable of copulation. If an angel is “beastial” in its spiritual nature and can materialize, though being thousands of years old and being supremely intelligent, I find it difficult to discount that copulation is possible. In fact….the New Testament implicates evil angels in carrying on lascivious and lustful activities….

Jude
{1:6} And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {1:7} Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In Jude we read about a group of angels who “kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation”. We also read that this specific group of angels were “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”. These are obviously not Satan and his angels who we daily contend with today. We know this because Satan and his angels are not bound by chains in darkness as of yet. If the fallen angels are all bound…who are we fighting in the spiritual? So this is specifically describing a specific class of angels who “left their first estate” and obviously sinned a sin so grievous God bound them before the day of judgment. Who are these angels? What did they do? If we interpret Genesis 6 properly, I believe we plainly see what they did. They sought out “strange flesh” by coming to earth in material form and took daughters of men (mankind) to themselves. This would explain why they are described in connection with the cities of the plains (Sodom and Gomorrah). We also read that Sodom and Gomorrah, with the cities about them sinned “in like manner” as these angelic beings. Why did they do? The gave themselves over to lasciviousness.

We also read about them in 2 Peter,

II Peter 2:4
{2:4} For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Notice again, these angels “sinned” and were cast down to Hell (Tartarus) being delivered into chains of darkness, reserved unto the judgment.

So, if these texts aren’t describing the “sons of God” (Bene ha Elohim) of Genesis 6… who are they describing? Obviously Peter and Jude’s readers were well aware of this because no extensive explanation was necessary. Were Peter and Jude caught up in “Jewish fables” or were they perhaps aware of a truth about these fallen angels that is so terrible that it bewilders our modern minds? Please read Genesis 6 with these NT verses in mind…

Genesis 6:1-4
{6:1} And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, {6:2} That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. {6:3} And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. {6:4} There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

We see “sons of God” taking daughters of men, all of which they chose. We see that the progeny from these unions produced “giants” (Hb. Nephilim). If this is simply a godly line of mankind mingling with an ungodly line of mankind this leaves us with several questions:

If this is just a godly line of mankind mingling with an ungodly line of mankind; why don’t we see “giants” (Hb. Nephilim) born in families that are unequally yoked today?

If this doesn’t depict a vile sin committed by fallen angels; who and what was being referred to in II Peter and Jude?

If II Peter and Jude were describing Satan and the general fall of his angels; who do we wrestle with seeing that II Peter and Jude proclaims that they are bound in Hell (Tartarus) under chains of darkness?

If one argues that the “sons of God” were the line of Seth… they can’t honestly answer these questions. In fact, all they can argue is that we don’t know what angels II Peter and Jude are talking about nor even what sin they committed. This may sound acceptable… but then it puts Peter and Jude into question. Did Peter and Jude believe in Jewish fables and therefore misguided? What validates the truth they propose regarding this specific group of angels? Why do they speak about it as though it was an understood biblical truth? The argument that the “sons of God” were human beings throws Peter and Jude under the bus.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Aquila

CONTINUED...



True. But Jewish fables aren’t anywhere in Scripture. For example, we see no hint of Lilith. But… this interpretation of the story of Genesis 6 was obviously strong enough and widely believed enough in the first century that a man of Josephus’ caliber included it in his, Antiquities of the Jews.



I disagree. We read….

Job 1:6
{1:6} Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {1:7} And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and
said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking
up and down in it.

Here, the sons of God are clearly the angelic hosts. In this passage the angels present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. So we clearly see that the term “sons of God” (Hb. Bene ha Elohim) can indeed refer to angelic beings.

In addition we read…

Job 38:1-7
{38:1} Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, {38:2} Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? {38:3} Gird up now
thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. {38:4} Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. {38:5} Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? {38:6} Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; {38:7} When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In the above text the LORD reproves Job by reminding him that he wasn’t present when God created the earth and the “sons of God” shouted for joy. Here too, the term “sons of God” (Hb. Bene ha Elohim) refer to the angelic hosts in their worship and praise of Jehovah God at beholding His creation which was very good.

Now, most who postulate that he “sons of God” were righteous men (namely the line of Seth) take a couple verses from the New Testament to state such…

John 1:11-13
{1:11} He came unto his own, and his own received him not. {1:12} But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: {1:13} Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8:14
{8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And in my Bible search I found a series of other references.

However, here’s the issue. The New Testament was written in Greek not Hebrew. The Hebrew “Bene ha Elohim” is used throughout the Hebrew texts of the Old Testament and extra biblical writings to denote angelic beings. The Greek transliteration from the New Testament into Hebrew wouldn’t be appropriate if translated “Bene ha Elohim”, else it would seem to be claiming angelic origin of the line of Seth. When Paul states that we are the “sons of God” Paul is speaking ontologically or relationally regarding our salvation and place before God in Christ. Paul’s thought processes aren’t even connected to the “Bene ha Elohim” of the OT.

In addition, per Paul’s definition, only those led by the Spirit can lay claim of being called the “sons of God”. Therefore we have to ask, if the line of Seth intermingled with the unrighteous, freely taking wives all of which they desired, who can they be called “sons of God”? Obviously in doing so they wouldn’t be being led of the Spirit.

So, while all of this is very brief and very to the point, my studies have resulted in my conviction that the “sons of God” (Bene ha Elohim) of Genesis 6 were indeed a class of fallen angel that violated the sacred lines between man and angel in which marriage is forbidden. And as a result their offspring were indeed grotesque giants whose spirits are still with us as “unclean spirits” while these angels in particular were bound by chains of darkness until the Day of Judgment.

Thoughts?

[Trouvere]

Fables would like to take away from the fact that Jesus
was the first born in the flesh of many brethren.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

The difference is Jesus. Samuel was real. He was not a devil. There are none in Abraham's bosom right now. I don't see where evil spirits were ever worried about except cast out such as the young woman with the spirit of divination or the demoniac that legion was cast out of. We can become
pawns of satan when we play by his rules. The Bible is our authority. I don't lean to or allow for any thing but Biblical text when dealing with demons.
If we had examples of the Apostles or early disciples leading lost souls into the light then we would have a proof text but we do not. So in that instance
we as well need to be cautioned that we not move from the Biblical position to the position of spiritualist or sorcery. That would make the enemy very happy.

I agree. The bible deals with what we are meant to know. And if there are areas it does not deal with, then God expects us to not concern ourselves over them as well. But I think enough int he bible informs us about the thought that "ghosts" are no human spirits, but imposter devils.

Brain candy is fun and cool. It interests our minds. But our spirits need truth and I think we spend too much time on things that do not matter.

Too many people have gone into false doctrine by stressing things the bible says nothing about. Why, the Catholics even made doctrines about doctrines not in the bible! Tradition and Magisterium.