3 steppers

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Delta, do you think it could be dangerous to just assume someone has the Spirit? Just because? How DO I know I have the Spirit?

BTW this precedes Pentecostals in the old time Methodists who practiced "tarrying" for a salvational experience to confirm to them that they were indeed accepted of the Lord

Yes it would be dangerous. However, I am not the one going around telling people that they have the spirit when they speak in tongues. That is the three-step crowd and it is well documented that many have been told they have it when by the three-step definition they didn't get it. I don't know if someone receives the spirit. That is God's job to give it. We have seen that some received while hearing, others only through the Apostles, and others it doesn't say what they did.

So, when we find difficult passages we have to look at other scripture to interpret.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

No, it shows that a specific race of people, the Samaritans, didn't first receive the Holy Ghost without it coming from the apostles first.

Well first of all it does NOT show it "came from the Apostles"...it shows the Apostles prayed for them to receive it. Jesus gives the Spirit. Second in fact it DOES show they were believers and that they had not received the Spirit., How you can say "no" I really am puzzled.

The problem is that if the Samaritans (with their leader Simon who was known to be a sorcerer) had all of a sudden had the Holy Ghost without out it coming from the Jews then no one would have believed it.

That does not make sense...the text shows Jews were there. Phillip, as I already pointed out, was there. He brought the gospel TO them.

I will post it again

Act 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed.
Act 8:8 So there was much joy in that city.
Act 8:9 But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great.
Act 8:10 They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called Great."
Act 8:11 And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Phillip....not Simon the sorcerer.

Remember, the Jews thought it was for them. I think a valid point of this text is that without the blessing of the Apostles there would have been huge credibility issues with this newly founded gospel.

Remember this though...they apparently had no problem with Phillip going to Samaria and preaching the word...why is that? Quite different than the Gentiles since God had to give Peter some motivation.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Yes it would be dangerous. However, I am not the one going around telling people that they have the spirit when they speak in tongues. That is the three-step crowd and it is well documented that many have been told they have it when by the three-step definition they didn't get it. I don't know if someone receives the spirit. That is God's job to give it. We have seen that some received while hearing, others only through the Apostles, and others it doesn't say what they did.

So, when we find difficult passages we have to look at other scripture to interpret.

So again, how does someone know they have it? And how would the church know someone has it? How did they know in the bible?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Does it say they spoke in tongues? Can anyone please direct me to any verse that shows where they were praying and striving for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues?

They were not striving, pleading, agonizing, sweating and spitting as far as I know. That's not how folks received the Holy Ghost Baptism in the first century church.

Jesus comes into our heart as the Holy Spirit when we invite Him.
As a child of God we have a promise of an experience known as the Holy Ghost Baptism, an empowering, a filling, etc. of the Spirit.

This Holy Spirit Baptism happened to about one fourth of the early church (120 out of 500) as they were praying in the Temple on the Day of Pentecost (ref Acts 2:1-4) This was in the spring of AD 30

This Holy Spirit Baptism happened when hands were laid upon a group in Samaria who had received Jesus Christ (the Word) and had been water baptized (ref Acts 8:5-18). The Apostles sent John and Peter down from Jerusalem (40 mile, 2 day journey) to minister the Holy Ghost Baptism to them. This was in the winter of 31/32 AD

Later in that same chapter after the Ethiopian Eunuch had confessed Jesus as his Lord and Savior, he and Philip the Evangelist and stepped down into some water "and when they were come up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the eunuch..." (Acts 8:39)

Saul, arch-persecutor of the early church met Jesus just outside of the city of Damascus and made Him Lord of His life. Three days later Ananias ministered the Holy Ghost Baptism to him by the laying on of hands (ref Acts 9:1-19) and he was water baptized. The traditional date for the conversion/salvation of Paul is January 25, AD 32. Three days later he was baptized in the Spirit.

Gentiles as a group first received the message of Jesus through the Apostle Peter in AD 38 as recorded in Acts chapter 10. Peter preached the resurrection of Jesus and declared that all who believe in Him receive forgiveness of sins. Evidently they believed the death, burial, and resurrection message and as they rejoiced in their new life/salvation experience the sermon was interrupted as the Holy Spirit fell upon them. They were later baptized in water. The Holy Spirit falling upon them is called a "gift" and likened to the Holy Ghost Baptism the apostles had previously recieved some 8 or so years ago in Acts 11:15-17.

Some years later, October AD 53, the Apostle Paul found some Baptists in Ephesus who had not heard the story of Jesus and salvation and the Holy Ghost Baptism. After explaining the Gospel to them and assuring that they were saved he baptized them in Jesus' name and ministered the Holy Ghost Baptism to them by the laying on of hands. This is recorded in Acts chapter 19.

So, in the incidents where it is recorded that believers were baptized in the Spirit over the first twenty some years of the book of Acts, He came by falling upon them, filling them, and coming upon them, and it is recorded that they "received" Him. The Spirit had been given and it was up to them to receive Him.

In several cases it is said that their was a manifestation that accompanied the Holy Spirit baptism. It says they spoke with tongues. In the case of Ephesus in Acts 18 they spoke with tongues and prophesied. It is not recorded that Paul spoke with tongues when he received the the Spirit baptism but we do know that he used his prayer language more than the whole bunch of tongue talkers in Corinth (i Corinthians 14:15, 18-19). In the case of the folks at Samaria, something happened when they received because Simon the sorcerer wanted to buy the gift of laying hands on people to minister the Spirit baptism. He had seen miracles, healings and exorcisms and had not offered to buy those gifts. Peter said to him "to hell with you and your money because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no part in this utterance" in verses 20 and 21. The word translated "matter" in verse 21 in the KJV is translated "utterance" in 1 Corinthians 1:5 and is taken by some to mean that speaking with tongues accompanied the Spirit baptism there.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by Light

Don't confuse them with the truth.

I must have missed something because I do not understand your reply

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Yea there was no seeking or praying for it in the bible like there is today they just put there hands on them in the bible and BAM you got it thats how it happened in the bible even old cornilious (sp) was not praying it just fell on top of him might of even knocked him down..LOL

I think you meant SHEKABOOMBA

=)

[Sam]

Standard Pentecostal (both Oneness and Trinity) is that speaking with tongues is the "initial physical evidence" of the Baptism in the Spirit. This is based on several incidents in the Book of Acts where people had an experience with the Holy Spirit where it says He "fell upon" them or "came upon" them"they were filled" with the Spirit, or they "received" the Spirit. This experience is called the "promise" of the Father. The experience in the Spirit is called a baptism or submersion or immersion or saturation in the Spirit or an overwhelming in the Spirit and is compared to the experience of being baptized, submerged, immersed, saturated or overwhelmed in water. In some of these incidents it is recorded that they spoke with tongues and/or prophesied.

The REAL evidence whether a person is a genuine believer in Jesus is the love manifested in that person's life according to the way I understand John 13:34-35. The Apostle John says we can know we have eternal life if we have believed in Jesus and have the Son of God living in us (1 John 5:11-13). How do we know that we have Jesus in us? Well, He promised us that if we came to Him He would not reject us in John 6:37. It's by faith. We believe that God is who He said He is and that He does what He says He will do.

This comes from an "elder" who has been saved for over 50 years and who received the Holy Ghost Baptism on Pentecost Sunday in 1956 and who is an ordained minister in an Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal organization that was around for about 20 years before the UPC was created in 1945.

[jaxfam6]

John 20
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Did the disciples receive the Holy Ghost the moment Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive it?

Luke 24
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Here, which seems to be around the same time frame as the account in John, he tells them to tarry in Jerusalem until they be endued with power from on high. Was that power the Holy Ghost?

I think we all can agree that it is.

Acts 1
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

Looks to me like many days passed from the time that Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Ghost and them actually receiving it. This is by no means scriptures to prove tarrying for the Holy Ghost but it does show that you do NOT always receive it at repentence (I am sure we can all agree that the Apostles were already repented). It also shows that they do not always receive it at baptism (I am also sure we can all agree that they were baptised). They did not receive at believing on Jesus that was several years before. (well at least 3 1/2 years)
Plus I would say that if a person wants to judge if they have the Holy Ghost they can come to Acts and see what happened when people received it there. Once you receive it you better start showing the fruit or you will prove you have not the Spirit of God but more like a spirit of disception. The devil can and will try to fool people. If God uses tongues he will try the same thing to fool people. I have known a few that 'spoke in tongues' and given a few years you saw the fruit they produced. It was not Godly fruit.

[KWSS1976]

Funny how the Jews this day and age don't get it and you would think they would be the ones doing most of the tongue talking...

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Funny how the Jews this day and age don't get it and you would think they would be the ones doing most of the tongue talking...

Why? When they never accepted Jesus in the first place?? Why in the world would they receive the Holy Spirit?