Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
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Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
You most certainly CAN have one without the other, my good friend.
Jesus said you couldn't. Jesus said that you would be nothing more than a white washed tomb full of the bones of those you had killed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
I've encountered many who LOOKED "holy" (and I hesitate to even use that term when describing outward standards, but it's our nomenclature) but were filled with unholiness.
Brother, then they were not who they claimed to be. It was asked of a Rastafarian, on how that the Rastafari were violent.
The Rasta smiled, and cheerfully said, "if they are violent, then they are not Rastafari!"
The Lord Jesus taught us in Matthew 23, that those who appear beautiful on the outside, and were not on the inside were not righteous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
And I have met several people who didn't ascribe to the Apostolic "look" who had more holiness in their big toe than many of the ones who looked "holy"!
I have met and befriended many people who are from all different religions, Mormons, Rastafarians, Muslims, Hindustani, and Atheists. All of the people who I know from these groups are kind and benevolent people. Brother Phelps, a religion should be judged by it's best, not be it's worst. We tend not to do the former, but the latter. Holiness standards of dress are part of almost every religion. It is separation from the World, and it is supposed to match the inner you. When it doesn't match the inner, you just become an open grave, in which people fall into unaware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
That's why I questioned the term "holiness standards".
Brother, I don't question what I believe due to those around me. The scripture says those who judge themselves among themselves are not wise.
Why? Because we should only measure ourselves with the measure and stature of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
I'm still waiting for someone to show me ONE scripture where Jesus said that people would know we were His disciples by our outward appearance.
Read Matthew 23, where Christ rebukes the religious because they didn't match the beautiful righteous attire, which they were wearing.
They appeared righteous on the outside, but didn't appear righteous on the inside.
Clean your cup and platter on the inside first (where it really counts) and then the outside will be clean also!
The ancient Romans believed, what you wore told the world who you were.
All ancient societies were known by their dress, as the same was with tribes.
It is modern day Churchanity that has fled this aspect and desires to blend into a world that doesn't want their Jesus or His religion.
Holiness of attire is not the problem, it's just the ones who put it on.
Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
Jesus said you couldn't. Jesus said that you would be nothing more than a white washed tomb full of the bones of those you had killed.
Brother, then they were not who they claimed to be. It was asked of a Rastafarian, on how that the Rastafari were violent.
The Rasta smiled, and cheerfully said, "if they are violent, then they are not Rastafari!"
The Lord Jesus taught us in Matthew 23, that those who appear beautiful on the outside, and were not on the inside were not righteous.
I have met and befriended many people who are from all different religions, Mormons, Rastafarians, Muslims, Hindustani, and Atheists. All of the people who I know from these groups are kind and benevolent people. Brother Phelps, a religion should be judged by it's best, not be it's worst. We tend not to do the former, but the latter. Holiness standards of dress are part of almost every religion. It is separation from the World, and it is supposed to match the inner you. When it doesn't match the inner, you just become an open grave, in which people fall into unaware.
Brother, I don't question what I believe due to those around me. The scripture says those who judge themselves among themselves are not wise.
Why? Because we should only measure ourselves with the measure and stature of Christ.
Read Matthew 23, where Christ rebukes the religious because they didn't match the beautiful righteous attire, which they were wearing.
They appeared righteous on the outside, but didn't appear righteous on the inside.
Clean your cup and platter on the inside first (where it really counts) and then the outside will be clean also!
The ancient Romans believed, what you wore told the world who you were.
All ancient societies were known by their dress, as the same was with tribes.
It is modern day Churchanity that has fled this aspect and desires to blend into a world that doesn't want their Jesus or His religion.
Holiness of attire is not the problem, it's just the ones who put it on.
I still think the modern day Apostolic church as whole majors on the wrong thing - the outward appearance.
You proved my point by referencing Jesus' comments - one CAN have the correct outward appearance, but not have holiness inside.
Now, one can't have holiness inside without it manifesting itself on the outside, but Jesus never reference the outward APPEARANCE when speaking of inward holines, he referenced the external ACTIONS and attitudes, i.e. "By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you have love one to another".
He also said in John 7:24 "Judge NOT according to APPEARANCE, but judge righteous judgment.'
I still maintain that holines is not evidenced by how we LOOK but by how we ACT.
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
I think I almost agree with you!
At least on 99 percent.
I still think the modern day Apostolic church as whole majors on the wrong thing - the outward appearance.
You proved my point by referencing Jesus' comments - one CAN have the correct outward appearance, but not have holiness inside.
Now, one can't have holiness inside without it manifesting itself on the outside, but Jesus never reference the outward APPEARANCE when speaking of inward holines, he referenced the external ACTIONS and attitudes, i.e. "By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you have love one to another".
He also said in John 7:24 "Judge NOT according to APPEARANCE, but judge righteous judgment.'
I still maintain that holines is not evidenced by how we LOOK but by how we ACT.
It's also not evidenced in specific clothing that we wear, which is proven by how men are dressed. Men can dress like other modestly dressed men yet be holy, but women don't seem to be holy unless they have on specific items, even though they are dressed modestly.
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Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne
It's also not evidenced in specific clothing that we wear, which is proven by how men are dressed. Men can dress like other modestly dressed men yet be holy, but women don't seem to be holy unless they have on specific items, even though they are dressed modestly.
'cept them ungodly shorts men wear!
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Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
I think I almost agree with you!
At least on 99 percent.
I still think the modern day Apostolic church as whole majors on the wrong thing - the outward appearance.
We must always remind ourselves that this is not an across the board situation. Yet, it may be your personal experience it may not be the experience of myself and others. I would agree that there are some who have left the internal self searching and inspection, and have gone the way of attire only. Still, when people just hold the rosary and don't pray the rosary, or have the icon, and would never kiss the icon, they cannot be considered true Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. If you meet a man wearing the dreadlocks and wearing an Ethiopian flag colored tam, you would first believe that he is Rastafari, but only after an interaction you may find out that he is not Rastafarian. The same is true with Jesus' teaching on attire and behavior in Matthew 23. Jesus instructs His followers not to judge concerning the outer attire, but go further and inspect the fruit. Jesus didn't say that the outer didn't matter or then where Jesus spoke of the cup platter would not of made sense. Jesus wants us to be clean on the inside and "then" our outer man will be clean.
You proved my point by referencing Jesus' comments - one CAN have the correct outward appearance, but not have holiness inside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
Now, one can't have holiness inside without it manifesting itself on the outside, but Jesus never reference the outward APPEARANCE when speaking of inward holines, he referenced the external ACTIONS and attitudes, i.e. "By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you have love one to another".
Jesus' teaching in Matthew 23 would of made no sense if He had never referenced the outside appearance when He was speaking of inward holiness.
Jesus said that the Pharisees appeared beautiful and righteous outwardly, yet they were full of all uncleanness. Jesus thought the Pharisees attire was beautiful, but it was their inside separation that was ugly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
He also said in John 7:24 "Judge NOT according to APPEARANCE, but judge righteous judgment.'
The righteous judgement was to understand it was not only by how the man looked but to try the spirits wether they were of God. In Revelation 2:2-3, the early Christians were admonished to try the spirits to make sure that those who claimed to be apostles were indeed apostles. The Jewish community during the first century AD didn't have to worry about women dressed like Roman Soldiers, or barbarians, or did were they concerned about Rabbis wearing long natty dreads. We live in a time were outward appearance is devolving into grunge, and the shot out of the cannon look. Also since the church is concerned into marketing Jesus and His Gospel, then they want to be able to pack the pews and just make members, not saints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
I still maintain that holines is not evidenced by how we LOOK but by how we ACT.
Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
We must always remind ourselves that this is not an across the board situation. Yet, it may be your personal experience it may not be the experience of myself and others. I would agree that there are some who have left the internal self searching and inspection, and have gone the way of attire only. Still, when people just hold the rosary and don't pray the rosary, or have the icon, and would never kiss the icon, they cannot be considered true Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. If you meet a man wearing the dreadlocks and wearing an Ethiopian flag colored tam, you would first believe that he is Rastafari, but only after an interaction you may find out that he is not Rastafarian. The same is true with Jesus' teaching on attire and behavior in Matthew 23. Jesus instructs His followers not to judge concerning the outer attire, but go further and inspect the fruit. Jesus didn't say that the outer didn't matter or then where Jesus spoke of the cup platter would not of made sense. Jesus wants us to be clean on the inside and "then" our outer man will be clean.
You proved my point by referencing Jesus' comments - one CAN have the correct outward appearance, but not have holiness inside.
Jesus' teaching in Matthew 23 would of made no sense if He had never referenced the outside appearance when He was speaking of inward holiness.
Jesus said that the Pharisees appeared beautiful and righteous outwardly, yet they were full of all uncleanness. Jesus thought the Pharisees attire was beautiful, but it was their inside separation that was ugly.
The righteous judgement was to understand it was not only by how the man looked but to try the spirits wether they were of God. In Revelation 2:2-3, the early Christians were admonished to try the spirits to make sure that those who claimed to be apostles were indeed apostles. The Jewish community during the first century AD didn't have to worry about women dressed like Roman Soldiers, or barbarians, or did were they concerned about Rabbis wearing long natty dreads. We live in a time were outward appearance is devolving into grunge, and the shot out of the cannon look. Also since the church is concerned into marketing Jesus and His Gospel, then they want to be able to pack the pews and just make members, not saints.
HOwever, I disagree that outward standards can be classified as HOLINESS.
Here's my reason:
In the OT the term "holiness" meant "separateness, consecration, apart".
However, we don't find any scriptures dealing with the Israelites' apparel, other than not wearing red, or cotton and linen together, and women not dressing up like men and vice versa, but nothing that said "Women have to wear this type of robe, and men this type, and here's what kind of jewelry you CAN wear, and here's what kind you CAN'T, etc."
What we DO find is plenty of instruction in how they should ACT. Abstain from idol worship like the heathens, don't engage in these types of activities, etc.
Now, let's take it to the NT.
If you do a search thru Strong's, you'll find words like:
Hosites - piety towards God.
Euesebia - reverence and respect toward God
Hagiosyne - moral purity
Hagiosmos - consecration, purification, the effect of consecration, sanctification of heart and life
Notice that the NT always classifies "holiness" as a heart issue?
I think it's interesting that Jesus didn't say "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that your women don't trim their hair, don't wear slacks, or jewelry, and your men don't wear beards and shorts", etc etc.
Instead, he talked about having faith toward God, treating one another as we would be treated, helping each other, loving each other as we love ourselves, abstaining from gossip, backbiting, animosity, tale bearing, etc.
And yet, what are the things that WE use to identify whether someone is Apostolic?
You got it - is her hair cut now? SHe must not be Apostolic anymore.
Or - Is he wearing a goatee now? HE must be going charismatic.
Or - I saw her in town with a pair of slacks on, she must be backslidden.
And, when you join an Apostolic church, before they let you on the platform, do they ask you "Do you have any bitterness in your heart?" Or, "Brother, have you prayed and fasted this week?" Or, here's my personal favorite, "Have you witnessed to someone this week"?
NO! What they say is, "You can be involved in our church if you don't cut your hair, wear pants, go to the movies, have a television in your home", etc.
Now do you see why I say that most Apostolic churches focus on the wrong thing?
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps
I agree almost again, lol!
HOwever, I disagree that outward standards can be classified as HOLINESS.
Here's my reason:
In the OT the term "holiness" meant "separateness, consecration, apart".
However, we don't find any scriptures dealing with the Israelites' apparel, other than not wearing red, or cotton and linen together, and women not dressing up like men and vice versa, but nothing that said "Women have to wear this type of robe, and men this type, and here's what kind of jewelry you CAN wear, and here's what kind you CAN'T, etc."
What we DO find is plenty of instruction in how they should ACT. Abstain from idol worship like the heathens, don't engage in these types of activities, etc.
Now, let's take it to the NT.
If you do a search thru Strong's, you'll find words like:
Hosites - piety towards God.
Euesebia - reverence and respect toward God
Hagiosyne - moral purity
Hagiosmos - consecration, purification, the effect of consecration, sanctification of heart and life
Notice that the NT always classifies "holiness" as a heart issue?
I think it's interesting that Jesus didn't say "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that your women don't trim their hair, don't wear slacks, or jewelry, and your men don't wear beards and shorts", etc etc.
Instead, he talked about having faith toward God, treating one another as we would be treated, helping each other, loving each other as we love ourselves, abstaining from gossip, backbiting, animosity, tale bearing, etc.
And yet, what are the things that WE use to identify whether someone is Apostolic?
You got it - is her hair cut now? SHe must not be Apostolic anymore.
Or - Is he wearing a goatee now? HE must be going charismatic.
Or - I saw her in town with a pair of slacks on, she must be backslidden.
And, when you join an Apostolic church, before they let you on the platform, do they ask you "Do you have any bitterness in your heart?" Or, "Brother, have you prayed and fasted this week?" Or, here's my personal favorite, "Have you witnessed to someone this week"?
NO! What they say is, "You can be involved in our church if you don't cut your hair, wear pants, go to the movies, have a television in your home", etc.
Now do you see why I say that most Apostolic churches focus on the wrong thing?
Agree! What should separate us from this world is our love! Do we love as He loved us???? This what separates us from the rest of the world! This is the sign that the heart has been change, not a wardrobe ones as some would love us to beleive.
Re: What Standards Have you Dropped Since Joining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTown
Agree! What should separate us from this world is our love! Do we love as He loved us???? This what separates us from the rest of the world! This is the sign that the heart has been change, not a wardrobe ones as some would love us to beleive.
Amen. It's so plainly written so in the bible and people still point to clothing, which wolves IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING love.
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