PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;582587]I understand the point your making completely, and agree with it for the most part. For instance a pastor banning blue and red from his specific church because of the specific issues you mentioned is understandable (popular gang colors in the neighborhood) and relevant to that church in that situation.


*****************************************MY REPLY********************************************* **********

(See it did it again! What on earth am I doing wrong? I hit the quote deal, I bring it up, and then when I go to reply there is no boxed in quote so I have to make my own line of distinction, oh well bear with me)

Such would be the case to bring up the concept of flashing lights (which I *hate* by the way) and fog as they occur in a church which may be situated in a section of town heavily populated by bars and night clubs. Perhaps the leadership would decide that they need to take a specific stand against looking too much like all the other businesses which are on the same block.

Exactly! I think this is the real crux of the matter, Apostolics have like most denominations bought into the ORGANIZATION mentality that takes the judgement and decision making OUT of the hands of the local assembly and into the Organizational realm, thus robbing the local assemblies SHEPHERDS or Government of a final say in the matter. What the church in Cucamonga decides to do on this issue is their own free decision, wether or not to participate in that with the sheep I am responsible for is MINE. But when these things intrude into venues that are COMMONLY shared such as youth meetings and district meetings and national meetings, then this DOES become an issue as is evident by the growing number of pastors who refuse to allow the sheep that THEY must answer for to come under what they perceive to be an incrementally encroaching spiritually negative trend. They certainly are with in their right to do so and certainly within their responsibility to do so as well.

I agree with you about the basis for making spiritual decisions by the way. But it seems to me upon a great deal of reflection that the majority of members of the body don''t tend (even in James the apostles day) to come from the upper economic classes privileged to have extensive educations and vocabularies that allow them to express themselves as eloquently as they might. So the expressions of resistance take on a very common (and I dont mean that insultingly its just the reality) tone and can be expressed as basically NO WAY or "We Aint gonna have none of that round here!" rather than a lengthy and well delivered reasoning why thus and such is contrary to the way that the Lord is bringing that assembly.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;582587]

But..... barring these sort of situations I still stand by my comment about making church policy based on something "looking too much like something else" is a VERY dangerous one and should not be made lightly, if at all. One problem with such rules is that they more often than not don't stop with only one step. Meaning, people being people more often than not keep adding to such rules:


************************I AGREE**********************



RIGHT ON THE HEAD MAN! RIGHT ON THE HEAD!!!!! I think that you are so close to something there Brother. One of the reasons for this is because the last days church has NOT attempted (by and large) to lose the gentile I'M THE KING LET IT RING!" type of church government.

What we need is a further restoration of the APOSTOLIC pattern of church government AND ministry the TWO five Fold Ministries that are virtually NOT EXISTENT in our day, (either one!) just that nature of the uncircumsized gentile "who's in charge and who gets the money?" thinking.

A revelation of the EKKLESIA where EVERY CITIZEN HAS A VOICE.

We need that so badly , I am talking to several other preachers that are often mentioned on this and other forums, and there is an understanding of just exactly HOW MUCH MORE WE HAVE TO GROW in things that is most encouraging! Not just disparaging everything 'cause it aint the way we been a doin it fer the last hunderd yars!" and not just jumping on every ridiculous boat that comes sailing by in an attempt to be "relevant" but an almost crushing in magnitude insight and desire to go OVER Jordan INTO the promised land and get the heck out of this wilderness that we have been circling around in for such a long LONG time!


That is why when you hear about churches wanting to be ""Relevant" at first your heart leaps ! And then you check it out and such a let down! It has nothing to do with stepping UP into MORE of GOD or GODLINESS but rather a grunge look, or a black and white yeah man type look, or a mosh pit type atmosphere and your GUT reaction is ...THESE GUYS ARE TAKING US IN THE *****OTHER**** DIRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!

Its a time of flux and change and some of it is wonderful some of it is dreadful, and it is a time that calls for great wisdom and the kind that comes from above and is of GOD rather than the kind that is sensual and of MAN.



*************************Then You Sagely Add***********


I won't do this because it is too much like this WHICH is too much like that! The concept of not doing something because it is too much like something else is a very shaky foundation which at best works for only one generation of "like" and even then in only specific situations like the one mentioned in your post about the colors blue and red.


**********************************I AGREE****************

Precisely! Which is why you NEED a church that is governed the BIBLE way, where there is a constantly growing and FLEXIBLE government of Bishops Elders Deacons Administrations and Helps, governing the assembly rather than the current parasitical denominational system of offices and positions and politicking! You need that (The LOCAL church government) as well as the counsel of the CITIZENS of that local ekklesia. When you dont allow the citizens a voice then you reduce them from citizens to subjects and start dictating TO them and you inadvertently change your self from a SERVANT of the ekklesia to holding LORDSHIP over it. You also change them from being a company of sons of God to serfs on your land.



***********YOU CONCLUDE WISELY***************************
Now.... What would happen if a church in an area of the country with little to no gang activity suddenly banned the colors red and blue because of what they read in your post? "If it is relevant for THAT pastor then surely it is relevant to ME!"?



**************************I Concur*********************

It would be a ridiculous position to take wouldn't it, unless of course there was a perceived THREAT to that OPENING a door that that ministry does not WANT opened.

I do know that one of the more poetic types in the Old testament about the role of the ministry is that of "Watchman On the Wall."

And the watchman on the wall has a PERSPECTIVE that others simply dont!

(I live in a city near the Alps. It is a major city that goes back to the days of the Caesars. There is a tower in our city that is a tower not for defense, but built to give PERSPECTIVE of another tower that is over one hundred miles away in the Alps. The people on the ground or out in their fields cant see that tower in the alps to do so you have to climb to the top of the tower in our city. The purpose of those two towers is this. The Alps form a natural barrierr to invading armies. And yet that barrier has been breached before.

SOOOOOO They have these two towers, one to signal to the other in case an invading army is on the way, giving the city I live in time to warn the citizenry, gather them in and bar the gates to keep the enemy at bay.

Sometimes I see the things like YOU mention about the two churches and different natures of the community they serve, and yet can not forget that as a WATCHMAN on the wall I must err on the side of caution, and MUST watch the signals from other assemblies and take into geunine consideration their warnings and signals that an invading army is on the way as well as positions.


I may choose to regard it and then say, well we will keep on eye on it (kind of like a distantly developing hurricane) but as for right now we will not close the gates. I may decide they are over reacting and kind of put things on a back burner in that area. I may decide they are nuts and choose to just plain disregard it.


But again I am working to build an assembly where the APOSTOLIC form of church government is evolving and so we make such decisions after praying, studying the matter and then bringing it to the citizens NOT in a service, not handing them a fete accompli from the pulpit, but holding a meeting of the citizenry where the men and women who feel to give their input are allowed to voice their concerns and opinions , and then just kind of hammer it out and invite the wisdom of God to manifest it self like it did in the ekklesia meetings in the Book of Acts.


That so much of this is about things affecting the most IMPRESSIONABLE segment of Gods church, its YOUNG is rather enlightening to me as to what spirit is really in back of a lot of this. The devil wants our kids and it is also interesting how that voices who are NOT responsible for their salvation seem to really resent the spiritual parenting that many ministers of God desire to give the young people that they have watched grow in God in their assemblies for many many years.

Again, who cares about fog and lights, they certainly would be effective in some venues and not in others, they are merely a symptom of a much greater issue, the real issue I feel is the neutered feeling that a lot of men of God are feeling and are unable to articulate but is kind of like this...

Imagine that YOU trust me to watch YOUR kids for the evening why you and your wife go out for dinner and a Play. OR even better, the two of you go away for the weekend and leave me to watch your kids.

You tell me before you go that you dont want your kids drinking soft drinks and eating junk food. You tell me that you and your wife feel VERY strongly about this saying those kids have NEVER eaten that garbage and we dont want them to while we are gone.

I hear that, but once the door slams I say "Oh what a fuddy duddy! Those kids only are young once! He's living in a fantasy if he thinks those kids are going to be hurt because they are allowed to eat pizza and drink coke like OTHER kids. Well I AM IN CHARGE NOW and I am going to completely flaunt his concerns and not only am I going to LET them eat whatever they want but I AM GOING TO TAKE THEM OUT TO MACDONALDS MYSELF!!!!!"

Imagine how you would feel when you return, find out what has happened and then find your self DISCUSSED ON A INTERNET FORUM WITH PEOPLE THINKING THAT YOU REPRESENT A DICTATORIAL FORM OF PARENTING AND IT BORDERS ON WITCHCRAFT!

Can you see how frustrated , enraged and powerless you might feel in the face of a barrage of posts against your right as a parent to set the boundaries for YOUR children wether they are in your immediate care or not.

I think that is much of what is in back of this , that feeling of being marginalized and emascualted for want of a better word , on the organizational level, with men who are NOT responsible to pastor those kids konwingly (!) exposing them to things and spirits that they KNOW many pastors who ARE responsible for them are NOT comfortable with.

I would say it is THAT arrogance that is the REAL cause of much of this whole back and forth, and again reflects the need for local assemblies to dramatically rethink their government and what they are part of on a national/ international level.


Well there ya go

[Jeremy]

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

they did not pay for their rebellion against his control, they paid because of the fact they chose to wear gang colors in an area that was infested with two of the most violent street gangs in America. That's the bottom line.

Something else to consider is this. They may have even paid for the totalitarian preaching style of your Bishop. How much more sense would it have made for him to simply relate news articles about innocent victims becoming the targets of gang violence because of the something as trivial as the color of a jacket or hat. Appealing to their logic instead of attempting to overrun their natural sense of free will was not really all that wise.

This is one of my big problems with the way Apostolic ministry works. We believe in a great God who designed us in his image, and from the very beginning of man offered and encouraged free will. This is one of the reasons we can have such a deep relationship with him, because we are not forced to serve him, but simply given the chance to respond to that small still voice, that knock at our hearts door. How many times have I heard it said God is a gentleman and does not force anything on us? More fingers and toes than I have, that's for sure.

Yet we see a micro managing ministry that lays out every detail of what a Christians life should be from what they can wear, how they can wear what they wear, what colors what they wear can be, the precise length of a mans hair, where people can go on dates, the exact way a date should go (double, one shaporone, un-even males and females, where they can happen, how late they can go, how often they should occur, how long one should wait from one relationship to the next, etc.), the exact guidelines for church appearance, (open toed shoes, pantie hoes, hair up, hair down, mens hair parted, no colored shirts, no sport coats, no jeans, must wear a tie,) no make up, no jewelry, no sports, no this no that blah blah blah.

I could literally go on writing double what I wrote, but you get the drift. These things being made mandatory ordinances of the church completely defy both the free will God gave us to serve him, AND the function of the Holy Ghost. You foster and welcome an environment for rebellion with a "because I said so" dogmatic style of leadership. Clearly the problem was the ADMIRATION OF THE GANGS! NOT the manner in which it manifested itself. It seems so very typical for our churches to address the outward manifestation of problems of the heart as if that is the solution.

Sorry that this seemed a bit...negative towards your Bishop, I don't mean it to be. I am just trying to objectively analyze the situation. I assure you no personal offense was intended. i know sometimes criticism can seem like attack when it comes to someones man of god, so I wanted to clarify that tearing down the man is not my intention, just a criticism the general way in which our ministry deals with issues like this.

And uhhhm. Yeah. Lights...they're still no good.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=Jeremy;583106]
They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

they did not pay for their rebellion against his control, they paid because of the fact they chose to wear gang colors in an area that was infested with two of the most violent street gangs in America. That's the bottom line.


****************I reply*******************************

I wish we were talking because sometimes I dont convey things very well over the net. I put "Control" in quotes because that was the RESPONSE or the way that preaching was viewed by some of the parents who rejected Bishops absolutely Biblical responsiblitly to set some lines for the sheep he was charged with feeding and KEEPING.


You are absolutely right they paid with their lives because of their own foolish choices but not only that, they MADE that choice directly in the face of a man who had pastored them, their parents and their GRANDPARENTS for over forty years, had loved them, prayed for them, wept over them, preached to them, baptized them , prayed them through to the life in Jesus Christ, taught them, agonized for them, rejoiced with them, and had basically invested his entire life in shepherding them.

I was merely establishing that the FOOLISHNESS of so cavalierly rejecting his ministerial authority as well as the EXCUSELESS REBELLION of the parents who 1.) Heard Bishops charge...2.) Grumbled about it and 3.) Said "Honey don't you worry, Bishop don't mean it, you do what you want to do, he's old, he don't understand, he don't have the right to tell you how to live your life..." was a very large part of why they found themselves OUTSIDE the ark of safety and attending funerals instead of graduations. and weddings ......


**************You Continue***************************

Something else to consider is this. They may have even paid for the totalitarian preaching style of your Bishop.

***************I reply******************************

I am laughing here, not at YOU but, OH BOY you should have been there! Totalitarian was about as far away from the way it was as could POSSIBLY be! It was incredible! Absolutely incredible.The phrase "In one ear and out the other" doesnt even BEGIN to describe it!



********************YOU CONTINUE******************
How much more sense would it have made for him to simply relate news articles about innocent victims becoming the targets of gang violence because of the something as trivial as the color of a jacket or hat. Appealing to their logic instead of attempting to overrun their natural sense of free will was not really all that wise.


**********************I REPLY***************************

You are not from the inner city are you? What do YOU think would speak louder to you ...an article in a newspaper about someone who was killed because they were wearing the "Wrong colours" OR seeing them gunned down in cold blood right on your front doorstep!? You would THINK that THAT would inform their decisions but INCREDIBLY ENOUGH NOT SO!

********************YOU CONTINUE**********************

This is one of my big problems with the way Apostolic ministry works. We believe in a great God who designed us in his image, and from the very beginning of man offered and encouraged free will. This is one of the reasons we can have such a deep relationship with him, because we are not forced to serve him, but simply given the chance to respond to that small still voice, that knock at our hearts door. How many times have I heard it said God is a gentleman and does not force anything on us? More fingers and toes than I have, that's for sure.

Yet we see a micro managing ministry that lays out every detail of what a Christians life should be from what they can wear, how they can wear what they wear, what colors what they wear can be, the precise length of a mans hair, where people can go on dates, the exact way a date should go (double, one shaporone, un-even males and females, where they can happen, how late they can go, how often they should occur, how long one should wait from one relationship to the next, etc.), the exact guidelines for church appearance, (open toed shoes, pantie hoes, hair up, hair down, mens hair parted, no colored shirts, no sport coats, no jeans, must wear a tie,) no make up, no jewelry, no sports, no this no that blah blah blah.

I could literally go on writing double what I wrote, but you get the drift. These things being made mandatory ordinances of the church completely defy both the free will God gave us to serve him, AND the function of the Holy Ghost. You foster and welcome an environment for rebellion with a "because I said so" dogmatic style of leadership.



**********HOW CAN I ARGUE WITH THAT????********************


Read my other post to Randy. I am so much in agreement with you about that BUT here is the dilemna we face, and it is a HORRIBLY FRUSTRATING dilemna at that!

When the people of God came OUT of Egypt, they were intended to continue going right INTO the place that God wanted to bring them.

BUT they had been shaped in Egypt to be SLAVES, and the overwhelming vast majority of those people NEVER LOST THAT MINDSET. Sad but true, they simply WERE NOT ABLE TO ENTER INTO THE LAND OF PROMISE.
And so They wandered around and around and around and around and around decade after decade after decade after decade.

Think how frustrating that must have been to the few with the Promised Land mindset of FREE MEN who were compelled to wander aimlessly with them year after year after...well you know.

But God loved those people, they were HIS people slave mentality and all!

So he patiently did not abandon them or overthrow them in the wilderness, but led them and fed them and clothed them for all those decades until they DIED OUT in the wilderness and a NEW GENERATION who had never been slaves in Egypt came forth and THEY went IN to the land their parents SHOULD have had.

So much of what we have now is so dear to God people wise, but the sad reality is they dont always think so good! A great many of them still see themselves as slaves, trying desperately to earn their masters love by cranking out as many bricks and works as they can. They are STILL slaves only now instead of being slaves to Pharaoh they see themselves as slaves with a new slave driver, God himself. Their whole relationship with God can often be seen as that of a slave to his master.

I long to see the day that the realization rises upon the heart of the MAJORITY of Gods people that NOW they are the SONS of God! And start to walk in that maturity and base their decisions on that and the word rather than having to have some school master of a tyrant standing over them with the cane to beat them into submission. You are so so so so so so right!

But did you ever read "The Voyage Of the Dawn Treader" by C.S. Lewis?
Do you remember the Monopods and how they were so foolish. Yet the man who had charge over them ruled them, but the way they required to BE ruled.
Like countries get the kind of leadership THEY deserve so congregations get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Just in closing this deal, every time Bishop would get up there and be preaching his heart out, and they would be yelling "Amen Bishop!!!"
I would sit there biting the inside of my mouth because **I*** knew (as did Bishop) its in one ear and out the other and they gonna go right out and do exactly as they please when its all said and done!

****************you continue**************************
Clearly the problem was the ADMIRATION OF THE GANGS! NOT the manner in which it manifested itself. It seems so very typical for our churches to address the outward manifestation of problems of the heart as if that is the solution.


***I INTERJECT*****

I agree but the complexities of the whole situation make it a little more intricate than that but you are basically right

[Jeremy]

I wish we were talking because sometimes I dont convey things very well over the net.

I can relate, hence the long clarification at the end of my first post.




You are absolutely right they paid with their lives because of their own foolish choices but not only that, they MADE that choice directly in the face of a man who had pastored them, their parents and their GRANDPARENTS for over forty years, had loved them, prayed for them, wept over them, preached to them, baptized them , prayed them through to the life in Jesus Christ, taught them, agonized for them, rejoiced with them, and had basically invested his entire life in shepherding them.

God has so much more invested in us, yet he still has never tried to force anything on us.



I am laughing here, not at YOU but, OH BOY you should have been there! Totalitarian was about as far away from the way it was as could POSSIBLY be!

I was basing it off of

"THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

That does not leave to much room for choice does it? maybe totalitarian may not be exactly the right term, but it is total control, which was the point I was making.




You are not from the inner city are you? What do YOU think would speak louder to you ...an article in a newspaper about someone who was killed because they were wearing the "Wrong colours" OR seeing them gunned down in cold blood right on your front doorstep!? You would THINK that THAT would inform their decisions but INCREDIBLY ENOUGH NOT SO!

I agree. if they saw it happen, and still continued on, neither method is likely to be effective, but if you are going to spend the time trying to appeal to them, logical common sense talks will get much farther than "because I said so" lectures. You have to realize that they are intentionally making bad choices in light of overwhelming evidence that it is dangerous. Yelling at kids who are already clearly bucking society and trying to be counter culture seems like the absolute worst way to handle them.




Like countries get the kind of leadership THEY deserve so congregations get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Are you suggesting that people who have been downtrodden longer than this country has existed and suffer under tyrannical, oppressive and racist regimes deserve it? Do abused children deserve it? Abused children? I know you are not really saying this, but your parallel is horrible. It is the responsibility of a conscientious church leader to teach and guide not to rule and dominate.

The power of the Pulpit can often be used as a shortcut, but when people start going through real issues of faith, rebellion, questioning, or doubt, that short cut flies out the window, and the attempted use of some ultimate authority clause is only going to be met with contempt.

In all honesty, it sounds like these kids knew full well what they were doing and chose to continue on in that manner anyway. I highly doubt anything could have made them quit.

Glad to know we agree on the overall principle of the matter though, and thanks for the interesting conversation without getting offended or making it personal. I hope that at this point some people in your local ministry have reached out to the community to learn some counseling methods for kids who are romanticized by the gang life.

I don't think it would be at all inappropriate to get these kids help outside of the church even. There are people who dedicate their lives to understanding the appeal and draw of gangs to kids, and may be able to do a good job of pulling them out, especially if they are not where they need to be spiritually and this subject to the power of the influence of the Spirit.

Take care friend. Sounds like you have a great community to evangelize and some kids who very much need to hear that there is a real Jesus who loves and cares for them.