Get mad all you want, there's a lot of truth to what was said.
There may be some truth to it, but not a whole lot! With what you said, i have never heard that Jesus doesn't love anyone because of this or that.... That is totally contrary to the Word of God and even the most dogmatic ucer will agree.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW
Not in any of the churches I've visited or attended. Thank the Lord!!!!!!
Mine either!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyde
In your opinion, and your experience. Which of course encompasses the entire universe, and must be used as a measuring stick for everyone, everywhere...
Rhetoric. It's all it is. I'm sorry but no matter what side it is coming from, it is rhetoric. You have your little candy stick, just the same as the people who are doing the things you are angry about.
Allowing railing against conservative apostolics to become your message and mantra is just as bad as what you are accusing them of of doing.
Your message isn't about the grace of God, and Him being the focus. It is about how wrong those other people are.
PLEASE note. I am referring to YOU, not everyone, referencing the last few pages of posts that you have made, not people like you, or everybody who goes to your church, etc...
amen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyman
Only when witnessing at a nude beach!
and the best for last! YAIN'T RIGHT MONKEYDUDE!
__________________
I never met a chocolate I didn't like!
*sigh* I did nothing yesterday.... I wasn't finished so I did nothing again today!
Actually as far as the question of preaching Acts 2:38 with Standards to be saved is concerned...those that hold that standards are essential or you are lost believe this way....
Acts 2:38 gets you in the door and standards keep you saved. I think that is a lot of baloney though...the only thing that has kept me saved all this time was Jesus.
Here is a tip though...yes I believe that our outward man must be clean, however God looks at the heart. The outward man is an extension of what is happening inward. Jesus said make the INSIDE of the cup clean first and then the outside will be clean also.....but as for our righteousness deeds
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Jesus was asked "Good master, what GOOD thing must I do to inherit the kingdom of God?" and Jesus answered "Why call me Good? There is NONE GOOD BUT GOD"
You want to know what law we must obey though? The Law of Love. It's been interesting this week. During a discussion with some brothers and talking about stuff like why we go to church, I asked what is the greatest law? He said "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,mind and strength" and I said "and?" and he answered "and your neighbor as yourself"....
The greatest law is LOVE. See....here is the thing If you are doing works to be saved, you are not fulfilling the law. If you are doing works out of love, God is certainly in you and there is an inward change of heart.
It is sad to me to hear women say it's the man's problem with her dressing immodest, but love does not put a stumbling block in front of others. Sure there are times it goes too far....like the preacher that came to our church and demanded women not wear zippers....that the zipper belonged to him (the man). We should go to church out of love. We should pray out of love. We should watch what we say out of love. We should walk holy and righteous out of love. Any time we see that we fail in these things....the answer to the problem is INWARD....but what we try to do is fix the outward and put a band aid on it. WE have a lot of saints that inwardly they are wanting...but outwardly they please the eyes of many Holiness preachers because they can't see the heart. All they can see is dress codes.
I taught a bible study (IHML) and ended it with a discussion of repentance. I pointed out to her that according to God's standards no one on this planet is good.
Another fellow that I knew was not a believer declared.."you love God right? I love God...I think we ALL love God"...these were the same ones that went to the Catholic church to look for women...
I said "Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments....do you keep his commandments?" He did not need to answer. It was a look of a knowing guilt. That was evidence that in his heart he was not right...that he was trying to assure himself that he is ok without truly yielding his live to God.
Im not against outward things such as long uncut hair (though I don't promote the idea that to cut is a sin)....I am not against the don't wear pants rule on women (though if the issue is being feminine there are pants for women men would never wear unless they were queens)...I am not against the no makeup rule and in fact I believe the use of makeup for many women is a symptom of a very low self esteem re-enforced by our worlds emphasis on fleshly things and we should resit getting caught up in what the world tells us is beautiful.
Many girls cut themselves, self induce vomiting, eat and purge because of what the world is telling them.
At the same time I would never say a woman is sinning for wearing a little base or something. The bigger issue is really about what is in the heart...motive...purpose...attitude. For example...in arguing no facial hair many have argued "it can be a pride issue for him"...well if that is the case and that is the reason for that person to not wear facial hair then he should not. But using that logic then that does not necessarily mean every woman's reason for wearing makeup is to be hoochie momma :-)
Jewelry...I've already argued that into the ground with bro Epley. I believe in moderation. I don't believe we Christians should wear a lot of jewelry. Again it is about attitude. I remember we had an elderly black lady in our church that came from another church. She wore cheap earings like the kind you find at walmart on a rack....she wore it for looks. It seems natural for ladies to like to be pretty and accessorize...they buy shoes to match an outfit. They like to put things in their hair.
But Paul said "Let it be the hidden woman of the heart"....this sort of proves my point though. That what really matters is what is in the heart. While one might try to use this to say we should de-emphasize the outwardly like wearing makeup and other stuff at the same time those same people ARE in fact emphasizing the outwardly with their outward appearance rules and using those as factors to judge a persons true holiness.
I don't believe we should just be allowed to do whatever we want as far as all that is concerned, which I guess is part of what makes me a moderate. I would prefer no makeup and very little jewelry except maybe a wedding ring. I also would prefer women in dresses and skirts because of how they look but also there are some cases where it is better to wear pants, like in the work place etc etc....
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
In your opinion, and your experience. Which of course encompasses the entire universe, and must be used as a measuring stick for everyone, everywhere...
Rhetoric. It's all it is. I'm sorry but no matter what side it is coming from, it is rhetoric. You have your little candy stick, just the same as the people who are doing the things you are angry about.
Allowing railing against conservative apostolics to become your message and mantra is just as bad as what you are accusing them of of doing.
Your message isn't about the grace of God, and Him being the focus. It is about how wrong those other people are.
PLEASE note. I am referring to YOU, not everyone, referencing the last few pages of posts that you have made, not people like you, or everybody who goes to your church, etc...
Hahaha, just the fact this has incited you as it has tells me I hit a nerve. You said I railed against conservative apostolics? Are you saying the content of my post is correct? Because you have given validity to what I've said. You didn't refute the content, you attacked the messenger.
I'm not attacking conservative apostolics, I'm attacking ungodly behavior by people who are ignorantly destroying the next generation. BTW, I didn't refer to any one specifically. If the shoe fits, wear it. However, I have evangelized and pastored for over 25 years in apostolic churches across the nation. What I have said may not be in every church, however it is in many.
Just the social pressure of acceptance in most churches is enough to cause people to adapt. The basic need of human emotion is love and love is found through intimate connection with others.
Children want to be accepted, this is the fundamental developmental need in our soul. By not fitting in, they begin to internalize this as their fault. This is why little Suzie will go to mommie and ask her why she can't wear pants at school. When not properly given a valid reason for the differing behavior, mommy will make one up to justify this behavior so as not to be wrong in their actions. Hence, the old adage, "because I said so". Children are very perceptive, even more than adults. You can't fool a child.
Modesty is one thing. Telling children their special because they don't dress like others is devastating. This is why children rebel. Not because their rebellious, but because they find acceptance in what they gravitate towards.
BTW, have you ever considered or heard extreme outward standards in churches described as "our identity"? I've heard it over and over and over at GC too. Just recently by the GS at a District Conf. He told the women they should be thankful for their standards, because they could impose the Moslem dress on women.
Biblical standards are found in Galatians chapter five. God does require His children to abide in His love and the description of love is found in 1 Corinthians 13. It's not rocket science, just human behavior 101.
Extreme unbiblical standards separate families, cause children to be rejected by their parents, bring confusion, create spiritual pride, and a whole list of socially dysfunctional behaviors. It's no wonder people think some of us are weird, because we are.
Actually as far as the question of preaching Acts 2:38 with Standards to be saved is concerned...those that hold that standards are essential or you are lost believe this way....
Acts 2:38 gets you in the door and standards keep you saved. I think that is a lot of baloney though...the only thing that has kept me saved all this time was Jesus.
Here is a tip though...yes I believe that our outward man must be clean, however God looks at the heart. The outward man is an extension of what is happening inward. Jesus said make the INSIDE of the cup clean first and then the outside will be clean also.....but as for our righteousness deeds
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Jesus was asked "Good master, what GOOD thing must I do to inherit the kingdom of God?" and Jesus answered "Why call me Good? There is NONE GOOD BUT GOD"
You want to know what law we must obey though? The Law of Love. It's been interesting this week. During a discussion with some brothers and talking about stuff like why we go to church, I asked what is the greatest law? He said "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,mind and strength" and I said "and?" and he answered "and your neighbor as yourself"....
The greatest law is LOVE. See....here is the thing If you are doing works to be saved, you are not fulfilling the law. If you are doing works out of love, God is certainly in you and there is an inward change of heart.
It is sad to me to hear women say it's the man's problem with her dressing immodest, but love does not put a stumbling block in front of others. Sure there are times it goes too far....like the preacher that came to our church and demanded women not wear zippers....that the zipper belonged to him (the man). We should go to church out of love. We should pray out of love. We should watch what we say out of love. We should walk holy and righteous out of love. Any time we see that we fail in these things....the answer to the problem is INWARD....but what we try to do is fix the outward and put a band aid on it. WE have a lot of saints that inwardly they are wanting...but outwardly they please the eyes of many Holiness preachers because they can't see the heart. All they can see is dress codes.
I taught a bible study (IHML) and ended it with a discussion of repentance. I pointed out to her that according to God's standards no one on this planet is good.
Another fellow that I knew was not a believer declared.."you love God right? I love God...I think we ALL love God"...these were the same ones that went to the Catholic church to look for women...
I said "Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments....do you keep his commandments?" He did not need to answer. It was a look of a knowing guilt. That was evidence that in his heart he was not right...that he was trying to assure himself that he is ok without truly yielding his live to God.
Im not against outward things such as long uncut hair (though I don't promote the idea that to cut is a sin)....I am not against the don't wear pants rule on women (though if the issue is being feminine there are pants for women men would never wear unless they were queens)...I am not against the no makeup rule and in fact I believe the use of makeup for many women is a symptom of a very low self esteem re-enforced by our worlds emphasis on fleshly things and we should resit getting caught up in what the world tells us is beautiful.
Many girls cut themselves, self induce vomiting, eat and purge because of what the world is telling them.
At the same time I would never say a woman is sinning for wearing a little base or something. The bigger issue is really about what is in the heart...motive...purpose...attitude. For example...in arguing no facial hair many have argued "it can be a pride issue for him"...well if that is the case and that is the reason for that person to not wear facial hair then he should not. But using that logic then that does not necessarily mean every woman's reason for wearing makeup is to be hoochie momma :-)
Jewelry...I've already argued that into the ground with bro Epley. I believe in moderation. I don't believe we Christians should wear a lot of jewelry. Again it is about attitude. I remember we had an elderly black lady in our church that came from another church. She wore cheap earings like the kind you find at walmart on a rack....she wore it for looks. It seems natural for ladies to like to be pretty and accessorize...they buy shoes to match an outfit. They like to put things in their hair.
But Paul said "Let it be the hidden woman of the heart"....this sort of proves my point though. That what really matters is what is in the heart. While one might try to use this to say we should de-emphasize the outwardly like wearing makeup and other stuff at the same time those same people ARE in fact emphasizing the outwardly with their outward appearance rules and using those as factors to judge a persons true holiness.
I don't believe we should just be allowed to do whatever we want as far as all that is concerned, which I guess is part of what makes me a moderate. I would prefer no makeup and very little jewelry except maybe a wedding ring. I also would prefer women in dresses and skirts because of how they look but also there are some cases where it is better to wear pants, like in the work place etc etc....
Just the social pressure of acceptance in most churches is enough to cause people to adapt. The basic need of human emotion is love and love is found through intimate connection with others.
Children want to be accepted, this is the fundamental developmental need in our soul. By not fitting in, they begin to internalize this as their fault. .
Hey , do you know Kristen,, thats my neighbor, she is atheist.....
that is what she says,
we don't have any kind of salvation, or Holy Ghost
its all just "monkey see , monkey doo"
sorry I can't be nice like diz but , I don't believe your tirade is all that popular nor common...nice try though...
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
Hahaha, just the fact this has incited you as it has tells me I hit a nerve. You said I railed against conservative apostolics? Are you saying the content of my post is correct? Because you have given validity to what I've said. You didn't refute the content, you attacked the messenger.
I'm not attacking conservative apostolics, I'm attacking ungodly behavior by people who are ignorantly destroying the next generation. BTW, I didn't refer to any one specifically. If the shoe fits, wear it. However, I have evangelized and pastored for over 25 years in apostolic churches across the nation. What I have said may not be in every church, however it is in many.
Just the social pressure of acceptance in most churches is enough to cause people to adapt. The basic need of human emotion is love and love is found through intimate connection with others.
Children want to be accepted, this is the fundamental developmental need in our soul. By not fitting in, they begin to internalize this as their fault. This is why little Suzie will go to mommie and ask her why she can't wear pants at school. When not properly given a valid reason for the differing behavior, mommy will make one up to justify this behavior so as not to be wrong in their actions. Hence, the old adage, "because I said so". Children are very perceptive, even more than adults. You can't fool a child.
Modesty is one thing. Telling children their special because they don't dress like others is devastating. This is why children rebel. Not because their rebellious, but because they find acceptance in what they gravitate towards.
BTW, have you ever considered or heard extreme outward standards in churches described as "our identity"? I've heard it over and over and over at GC too. Just recently by the GS at a District Conf. He told the women they should be thankful for their standards, because they could impose the Moslem dress on women.
Biblical standards are found in Galatians chapter five. God does require His children to abide in His love and the description of love is found in 1 Corinthians 13. It's not rocket science, just human behavior 101.
Extreme unbiblical standards separate families, cause children to be rejected by their parents, bring confusion, create spiritual pride, and a whole list of socially dysfunctional behaviors. It's no wonder people think some of us are weird, because we are.
Wow, totally missing and obliterating the point.
#1 The only nerve that was hit was the one that is stretched to its limit by parties from both side of the issue making huge assumptions about hundreds of thousands of people because of the behavior of some. If you had ever bothered to read anything that I have posted, you probably would already know that.
#2 I didn't address the content of the post because the point I was making was ABOUT the messenger. About you, not a group of people you are connected with, because I have never met them, and don't know them.
It was about YOU judging and making assumptions about people who don't believe the same as you do, who you don't even know, grouping an entire segment of society and judging them based on the behavior of some people who you do know.
And if I have to hear one more person tell me about their apostolic pedigree, I will have to just scream. I have one too, it is extensive, I choose not to trot it out every time I want to validate my point. It is irrelevant to the subject. I may met or been around 90% of all conservative apostolics and 90% of all liberal/charismatic apostolics, that still does not give me the right to judge the entire group for the crimes of some of them. In fact, here is a novel thought, I try my hardest not to judge any of them, even the ones I do know. It is enough work keeping my own life and spirit in line with Christ.
#3 You have no idea what I do or don't believe because I do not lay that out on here, for reasons of my own.
Get mad all you want, there's a lot of truth to what was said.
No sir. there is a lot of ignorance in what you said. Sadly your understanding of Holiness standars is either vastly lacking, in which case i cant muster much more than pity for you, or it is a case of sever bigotry and all I really feel is pity for you.
either way, mad isnt the direction. I feel sorry for you.
maybe I am mad the the people that taught you such a warped view of God.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
While I do hold to these holiness standards with a true love, I do not condone people saying that Jesus doesn't love others who wear this or that or whatever.... For God so love the WORLD....... God have His life for us while we were yet sinners........ So no matter where you are or who you are, God loves you.... His love is unconditional and what we decide to do with it up to us!
I have taught my children why we do things we do according to the Word of God...But I have also taught them that they will not judge others... There is wisdom we all have to use. I can't stand a judgemental attitude......on either side of the fence.... it never accomplishes anything!
I'm on the other side of the fence concerning standards, Lady Chocolate, but I agree with what you've said and your conviction to dress as you feel pleasing unto God.
Staysharp is having a field day condemning ALL those that hold to dress standards which is something the Apostle Paul never did when it came to vegetarians. Although Paul did cast condemning words on those who taught that others had to be vegetarians because that was their conviction. I believe we can apply this principle to dress standards or any convictions a person may have as long as they don't impose their conviction on others.
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
I would compare the one who eats with the one who is not under conviction regarding a certain dress standard.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
No sir. there is a lot of ignorance in what you said. Sadly your understanding of Holiness standars is either vastly lacking, in which case i cant muster much more than pity for you, or it is a case of sever bigotry and all I really feel is pity for you.
either way, mad isnt the direction. I feel sorry for you.
maybe I am mad the the people that taught you such a warped view of God.
Instead of attacking me, why don't you dissect what I've said and tell me why you disagree. I would love to hear your point of view without all the drama. Sincerely, tell me why what I've said is warped and not true. Don't attack me, I'm not attacking you, let's stick to the facts.
This is a great question to ponder?
Is it healthy for our children to impose unbiblical standards by which they will experience rejection from their peers? If so, tell me why?
I'm on the other side of the fence concerning standards, Lady Chocolate, but I agree with what you've said and your conviction to dress as you feel pleasing unto God.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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