You say that you quit for intellectual reasons, really?
pardon to be skeptical about your reasons, .
Yes, "really" . I understand skepticism since it's is my default attitude these days--but for you to express your disbelief about my own testimony so quickly-- indicates bad faith on your part. I had thought I was offering, (in good faith), one of the primary reasons I ceased to be a believer-- apparently judged by you as a possible or probable lie. I can understand the cognitive dissonance--for example, the conflict of being told that a true believing, longtime Christian decides to NOT believe due to simply concluding the bible is unreliable. Often the Christian (avoiding cognitive dissonance) must find scriptural reasons that must explain it, and impose THOSE upon the ex-believer, whether the scriptural reasons about "what went wrong here" have any hard evidence or not Also understandably, believers who reverse believing in the bible without any associated "bad behavior" is hard for former brethren to accept. Jesus said "My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand...I will never leave you nor forsake you. " So, it's an easier task on the mind to rather find fault with the ex-believer's (former) walk with God. (Imagine that--there always is something or other "not right" in a person, once we look deep enough.) A similar dissonance-avoidance ploy is to claim , "You never REALLY believed in the first place." Either way, it's arguing from bad faith (this early on) to reject another person's own assessment about why they ceased to believe. Conversely, I DO believe what you (FlamingZ) or any Christian claims about their own beliefs and testimony, until I have evidence to argue otherwise. So, I conclude this ersatz discussion would probably end being up being all about ME, rather than about evidence or reliability of the bible. So for my part, "Pardon not given" to you. That's unfortunate, as I otherwise love to argue about evidence and conundrums concerning the bible. (If anyone else here would like to, good! Especially the nuclear scientist.)
Quote:
That is right you quit...
Thanks for agreeing with me about that part of my testimony, anyhow.
Yes, "really" . I understand skepticism since it's is my default attitude these days--but for you to express your disbelief about my own testimony so quickly-- indicates bad faith on your part. I had thought I was offering, (in good faith), one of the primary reasons I ceased to be a believer-- apparently judged by you as a possible or probable lie. I can understand the cognitive dissonance--for example, the conflict of being told that a true believing, longtime Christian decides to NOT believe due to simply concluding the bible is unreliable. Often the Christian (avoiding cognitive dissonance) must find scriptural reasons that must explain it, and impose THOSE upon the ex-believer, whether the scriptural reasons about "what went wrong here" have any hard evidence or not Also understandably, believers who reverse believing in the bible without any associated "bad behavior" is hard for former brethren to accept. Jesus said "My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand...I will never leave you nor forsake you. " So, it's an easier task on the mind to rather find fault with the ex-believer's (former) walk with God. (Imagine that--there always is something or other "not right" in a person, once we look deep enough.) A similar dissonance-avoidance ploy is to claim , "You never REALLY believed in the first place." Either way, it's arguing from bad faith (this early on) to reject another person's own assessment about why they ceased to believe. Conversely, I DO believe what you (FlamingZ) or any Christian claims about their own beliefs and testimony, until I have evidence to argue otherwise. So, I conclude this ersatz discussion would probably end being up being all about ME, rather than about evidence or reliability of the bible. So for my part, "Pardon not given" to you. That's unfortunate, as I otherwise love to argue about evidence and conundrums concerning the bible. (If anyone else here would like to, good! Especially the nuclear scientist.)
Thanks for agreeing with me about that part of my testimony, anyhow.
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Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
Yes, "really" . I understand skepticism since it's is my default attitude these days--but for you to express your disbelief about my own testimony so quickly-- indicates bad faith on your part. I had thought I was offering, (in good faith), one of the primary reasons I ceased to be a believer-- apparently judged by you as a possible or probable lie. I can understand the cognitive dissonance--for example, the conflict of being told that a true believing, longtime Christian decides to NOT believe due to simply concluding the bible is unreliable. Often the Christian (avoiding cognitive dissonance) must find scriptural reasons that must explain it, and impose THOSE upon the ex-believer, whether the scriptural reasons about "what went wrong here" have any hard evidence or not Also understandably, believers who reverse believing in the bible without any associated "bad behavior" is hard for former brethren to accept. Jesus said "My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand...I will never leave you nor forsake you. " So, it's an easier task on the mind to rather find fault with the ex-believer's (former) walk with God. (Imagine that--there always is something or other "not right" in a person, once we look deep enough.) A similar dissonance-avoidance ploy is to claim , "You never REALLY believed in the first place." Either way, it's arguing from bad faith (this early on) to reject another person's own assessment about why they ceased to believe. Conversely, I DO believe what you (FlamingZ) or any Christian claims about their own beliefs and testimony, until I have evidence to argue otherwise. So, I conclude this ersatz discussion would probably end being up being all about ME, rather than about evidence or reliability of the bible. So for my part, "Pardon not given" to you. That's unfortunate, as I otherwise love to argue about evidence and conundrums concerning the bible. (If anyone else here would like to, good! Especially the nuclear scientist.)
Thanks for agreeing with me about that part of my testimony, anyhow.
I posted something on FB a while back that got weird very quickly. It was a TIC plan to start a new religion, and I started with The Rules. You know, those self-preservation mechanisms that are even more important that actual "doctrines". Things like "We tell you what you must believe" and "What we tell you to believe doesn't have to make sense to you".
Well, some of my friends took me to task. I think they recognized their own religion's rules and didn't like my pointing them out. Nobody disagreed with them, or said I misunderstood them, or even really mentioned them at all. They dove right in and blasted me for leaving the faith. Apparently, I should have done what they did, in the face of terrible loss (my brother dying of cancer): keep the faith, find peace, etc. You know the drill.
I even explicitly stated that I was happy that they found peace in their own way. I said they should do what works for them, as I did what works for me. Think any of them would say that to me? Pfft. No. It's "Tim, you are bitter".
I deleted it. Posted "I'll shut up now." One of my friends replied "Sounds good."
I hate religion more than ever, now.
(And before anyone here tries to point out, oh so helpfully, that they hate religion too, and they are into RELATIONSHIP, that was already tried on that deleted FB thread. Not wanting to call your religion a religion is understandable, but it's a lie. So please don't.)
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
....A definite improvement over Chic Tracts! (RIP.)
I would love to hear about someone claiming to have REALLY had coffee with Jesus--that would seem an appropriate 21st century touch, on God's part. As it turns out, that which is indistinguishable from imagination, is imagination.
But I'm not too demanding. Why can't God merely show up for just one scheduled book signing, like real authors do at Barns and Noble, or wherever? I would buy the latest edition, as well as coffee for everyone.
....A definite improvement over Chic Tracts! (RIP.)
I would love to hear about someone claiming to have REALLY had coffee with Jesus--that would seem an appropriate 21st century touch, on God's part. As it turns out, that which is indistinguishable from imagination, is imagination.
But I'm not too demanding. Why can't God merely show up for just one scheduled book signing, like real authors do at Barns and Noble, or wherever? I would buy the latest edition, as well as coffee for everyone.
Well, a few lucky folks have visited Jesus in heaven. That's pretty cool.
Well, a few lucky folks have visited Jesus in heaven. That's pretty cool.
I only watched the one about Colton Burpo. Interesting, at :45, the news reporter, attempting to offer a bit of prefacing context, or to imply, "open your minds," commented,
"It sounded like a story dreamed up by a little boy..."
Ya, but a story by an evangelical Christian boy having praying, evangelical parents. Do boys born into Hindu and Islamic families have similar trips to heaven and see a similar Italian Renaissance Jesus? Christian publishers ought to "find" some of these boys. They would make even more money.
I only watched the one about Colton Burpo. Interesting, at :45, the news reporter, attempting to offer a bit of prefacing context, or to imply, "open your minds," commented,
"It sounded like a story dreamed up by a little boy..."
Ya, but a story by an evangelical Christian boy having praying, evangelical parents. Do boys born into Hindu and Islamic families have similar trips to heaven and see a similar Italian Renaissance Jesus? Christian publishers ought to "find" some of these boys. They would make even more money.
Ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead (transl. by Evans-Wentz)?
Quite wrong. I had no problem with eternal torture when I was a bible believer (for 30 years or so.) It was a given that I was not accountable for God's "mysterious ways", although I did accept personal responsibility to spread "the Truth" to others. But never as a believer did I sit in judgment of the existence of hell, or anything else in the bible (which is kinda the definition of true believer, no?) I quit (over period of another cautious 10 years) only after I couldn't believe, based mostly on results of reading the bible (and about the bible) more deeply than what preachers, Sunday school, and Wednesday evening church classes fed me. IOW, I quit for intellectual reasons, and not (as Christians ignorantly accuse) due to "a rebellious spirit" or "desire to sin" or other typical claims that reveal more about the Christian making the judgment than the person they actually do not understand. Today, I enjoy picking on the silliness of Hell (and other issues) because it's such low hanging fruit, and should be one of the places to trigger increase of cognitive dissonance in someone's mind and heart, that is, if the person is ready to think critically, which most believers are not (almost by definition.)
Without my god glasses on, it's so clear how deluded I was for 30 years--to have believed so much with such poor evidence. Emotional neediness does that to a person.
So then, what were the discoveries you made that caused you to conclude the gospel is not true?
I otherwise love to argue about evidence and conundrums concerning the bible. (If anyone else here would like to, good! Especially the nuclear scientist.)
I have studied the Bible for over 30 years and so far I have found no evidence or conundrums that have made me doubt my faith.
I may not be a Nuclear Scientist, but I would like to hear about your evidence and conundrums.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
....A definite improvement over Chic Tracts! (RIP.)
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