We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The Lord's Supper was a very special event. The Last Supper was a Passover Seder. Early Christians observed the Lord's Supper as a full meal centered around a single loaf of bread (the body torn apart for each participant) and a single cup of wine poured out for all (the blood poured out for all). It was done to remember the body broken and the blood shed for our salvation...in addition it was to look forward to the day in which we will partake in the Marriage Supper with Christ Jesus our Lord in Heaven (trying to avoid a Premillennial vs. Preterism debate here lol). If a church uses grape juice it's using an alien element, not wine. Wine is living and breathes. Grape juice isn't. Wine is full of life giving properties, grape juice isn't so much so. The fellowship and symbolism of the actual Lord's Supper is so much greater than the Catholic Communion most Christians celebrate. If a church uses grape juice and a wafer...they aren't observing the Lord's Supper.

We have communion in house group gatherings, with a meal, and it's GREAT!

-Bro. Alex

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Some keep misusing Paul's words... We went over this- he wasn't speaking about exchanging pagan festivals for "Christianizing" them, he was talking about the keeping of Jewish sabbaths and feasts, since some of the church was Jewish and some was Gentile, and neither ought to judge.

Also, about the binding and loosing, yeah, Aquila, it seems that you ought to have capitalized you "c" in church... Wow... did you post around the bottom of p. 98 ever sound Catholic! We definately don't have power to just make stuff up, or put it to a vote or any other foolishness, but it's the Word of GOD that authorizes our activities. If you want to pick some random Sunday to preach about the birth of Christ- fine, but if you're picking December 25th... something's fishy. I know of an anti-xmas pastor who preached about the birth of Christ around August... fine by me.

-Bro. Alex

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

Aquila's list of things I find to be a bit ridiculous on a few points. Pagans didn't debate over the use of wine or grape juice for communion, and for the record, my assembly uses communion, and I'm fine with it, it's just a symbol anyways... but then again, I believe in open communion, so a ton of people think I'm heretical for that, I don't see communion as a "sacrament" as many conservative apostolics do...

Also, as for sermons, I don't see the pagan origin...

Lastly, although in our meetinghouse, there is no pulpit, the elder uses a simple black music stand... would that be too pagan?

A bit ridiculous...

-Bro. Alex

He wasn't using only pagan practices. He went so far as to separate Christianity from Judaism.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Maybe you should ask Frank Viola to explain to you what exactly a pulpit is?
it's not a lectern, which is simply Latin for "place to read." If you would take the time you do a little research, you would find that churches really don't have pulpits, but lecterns. The true pulpits where at least 12 feet on the wall of a cathedral, and the monk, bishop, or priest climbed stairs to reach it. He then looked down on the congregation and preached. The reason that it was done that way is because they didn't have PA systems. Within the pulpit was a dome above the head of the speaker/preacher and it was a sounding board.
The speaker/preachers voice hit the sounding board and it help carry the sound out over the congregation. The height of the pulpit also aided the speaker/preacher to be heard by those who was preaching to. When Jesus had Peter row the boat out, so Jesus could speak to the crowd, it was a pulpit affect. By using the boat in that manner Jesus was using it as a platform, and the water as a lower sounding board that would carry Jesus' voice. Jesus also would of made use of hills where He could stand and address the people. Again a pulpit affect. Within the first century synagogues there were two lecterns, one to read the scroll, and the other to interpret the scroll and teach from. There was also a raised platform between them used for the different Rabbis to argue their points concerning what was preached or taught.

You are an interesting person Bro Benincasa. lol

Thanks for posting this, I knew this was true but have no references if called on it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

We have communion in house group gatherings, with a meal, and it's GREAT!

-Bro. Alex

That would be far more biblical than the wafer and thimble of grape juice Catholic ritual that most have. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

Some keep misusing Paul's words... We went over this- he wasn't speaking about exchanging pagan festivals for "Christianizing" them, he was talking about the keeping of Jewish sabbaths and feasts, since some of the church was Jewish and some was Gentile, and neither ought to judge.

Also, about the binding and loosing, yeah, Aquila, it seems that you ought to have capitalized you "c" in church... Wow... did you post around the bottom of p. 98 ever sound Catholic! We definately don't have power to just make stuff up, or put it to a vote or any other foolishness, but it's the Word of GOD that authorizes our activities. If you want to pick some random Sunday to preach about the birth of Christ- fine, but if you're picking December 25th... something's fishy. I know of an anti-xmas pastor who preached about the birth of Christ around August... fine by me.

-Bro. Alex

I think that it's great that a pastor would preach about the birth of Christ in August. We need to call attention to his incarnation more than once a year.

Now, regarding Paul's statements. Paul's statements illustrate a universal principle. He wasn't saying that Jews can keep their sabbaths and feast days but Gentiles should go without observing anything in their cultural heritage. Paul's teaching a universal principle, we're judge each other based on the days we might choose to esteem or not to esteem. If you don't wish to take part in Christmas season's traditions, I can respect that. However, don't cram that down everyone else's throat. That's all I'm saying. Again, I'm European. I'm proud of my European cultural heritage. I believe in keeping European cultural traditions and maintaining a European identity. I'm not ashamed to be of European decent. Yes, some of these customs are rooted in my ancestor's pagan ways, but I am not a pagan and never will be. It's just a season of cultural traditions. And yes, most have chosen to commemorate or remember Christ's birth during this season. It's dark, dreary, and cold. It's a very warm and tender story that warms the heart and gives hope in the midst of the bitterly cold winter.

I'm reminded of the Maori people. A UPCI missionary (I think it was Bro. Addington) was a missionary among them. Many of them received the Holy Ghost and were water baptized in Jesus name. However, these are Maori people. They have a traditional "hacha" in which they paint the face, bulge their eyes, stick their tongues out, dance, and scream when at war. Well, a prayer meeting was scheduled. The missionary informed them that they were to come ready to do war with the devil. Well...the Maori showed up...faces painted and began to perform their "hacha" against Satan himself. As they performed their traditional war dance and screaming the missionary thought that they might be possessed, until he saw how the rest of the Moari were reacting. They understood, in their own way, that this was a spiritual war against Satan, not ancient familiar spirits. They had a mighty move of God among their tribe that day. To this day, some of the Maori preachers will peform a Hacha when preaching or in prayer meetings. Do I judge them? No. It's just part of their cultural identity.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

He wasn't using only pagan practices. He went so far as to separate Christianity from Judaism.

Judaism is very different from Christianity. According to Judaism Christ is a blasphemer. The Church's first persecutors were the Jewish authorities. In addition Jews don't regard Christ with any sincere warmth. They see him as a heretical blasphemer. Some of their writings accuse him of witchcraft and deny his resurrection. They regard him as a flase Messiah. Judaism is the old wineskin. It's dead. Period. Gone. Lifeless. The only hope for the Jewish people is that they repent of their spiritual rebellion and embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since marrying into a family that is part Jewish, talking with them, and even having the honor of talking with a couple rabbis, I'm highly suspect of Christians who have a romantic attraction to Judaism.

Christianity isn't just a sect of Judaism. It's an entirely New Covenant.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Judaism is very different from Christianity. According to Judaism Christ is a blasphemer. The Church's first persecutors were the Jewish authorities. In addition Jews don't regard Christ with any sincere warmth. They see him as a heretical blasphemer. Some of their writings accuse him of witchcraft and deny his resurrection. They regard him as a flase Messiah. Judaism is the old wineskin. It's dead. Period. Gone. Lifeless. The only hope for the Jewish people is that they repent of their spiritual rebellion and embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since marrying into a family that is part Jewish, talking with them, and even having the honor of talking with a couple rabbis, I'm highly suspect of Christians who have a romantic attraction to Judaism.

Christianity isn't just a sect of Judaism. It's an entirely New Covenant.

Yes, the way my church sees it, Moses' covenant was the 5th, and now we're in Christ's covenant, and the millennium is the 7th and final covenant. We can not go back to Moses' covenant, that it has been done away with, just like Abraham, Noah's and the rest are gone. With the fact that the sign of the 5th covenant, circumcision, is gone, it is hard to understand how the Jewish-leaning Christians feel so Jewish. Also, the Jewish majority in the church probably was not as some would paint it by calling it a "Jewish Church" or sect of Judaism. After Pentecost, sure the church was probably only Jewish, after Cornelius, there were a few Gentiles, but by the time you have 7 churches in Turkey, a church in Corinth, Ephesus, Thessolonica and all those other places, I can't help but imagine that the church was predominately Gentile, and I doubt they did things like, keep sabbath, wrap themselves in tefillin, wear prayer shawls or use Hebrew in their services, and they definitely didn't circumcise, and I doubt they had things like bar mitvahs, or set up canopies when couples married, they were NOT Jews. I'd be interested to hear nakhoe's thoughts on this. Btw... all of this is being said by an apostolic that celebrates Channukah (or at least a rouge Channukah!)!

-Bro. Alex

[ronharvey]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Having married into a Jewish family I found that very offensive.

However, I see the point you're trying to make.

The key is this...Christianity in Europe was attempting to redesign a pagan culture across an entire continent. Redefining ancient customs and bringing Christianity into focus during these celebrations was the best way to "overwrite" paganism and ensure that most of the worship of pagan gods was replaced with the worship and knowledge of Christ. Also much of the masses were illiterate. The holidays served as a time to teach Scriptural stories. Today, while we might put up a silly tree or place a wreath on our door...nobody would even know the first thing about the rituals or the pagan gods they honored. It also ended the revelries that terrorized the country side during the Yule season. It was a success. They successfully overwrote the culture of an entire continent. More than what I can say the "no Christmas" crowd can claim regarding taking America for Christ.

No Offense was intended, my younger step brother whom I love dearly is Jewish.

[ronharvey]

Originally Posted by StMark

notice how this question was ignored????

bet they'd take those evil C'mas bonuses especially in rough economic times!

Sorry,

I did not see the question.

Yes, I have.

Others were placed on my check.

Don't misunderstand, I allow others to practice their "Christian" beliefs.
But the truth cannot be covered over. The honoring of God's word comes first and foremost.