The House Church:

[ChristopherHall]

I think a lot has to do with one’s personal experiences and callings. It also has to do with what one has studied. I encourage you to read the book, Pagan Christianity? It’s a fascinating book that looks at the historical origin of most aspects of the traditional church. Another very good book is, Ecclesia, that explores the biblical roots of house church community.

[ChristopherHall]

When it comes to America, I do see America growing more carnal…along with the church. There’s a saying I firmly believe in, as the church goes so goes America. America is carnal…because the church is carnal. More and more Americans are realizing that the church has become a fabricated man made institution. The church in America is run more like another corporation and the pastor is quickly and more increasingly becoming the CEO. Men of God are going sour as they are isolated on our pews. Many Christians are getting tired of being preached at….they want to not only hear preaching but to minister to one another. More and more traditional churches are embracing cell groups to facilitate this need. I think Americans are looking for something that is real. They aren’t looking for a weekly religious show with goose bumps following. Americans are also aware of the depth of corruption behind the pulpits. American pastors have failed our people. I served on a ministry team of a nice sized church. Without going into details I can testify that manipulative tactics were employed to get more people to give more money. I also can testify of the waste and excess that I saw among the pastorate there. I believe the church I currently attend is different and I really love it so far. But the whole thing has caused me to do a considerable amount of reflection. What are we in ministry for? What is our focus?

You had said something important:

You said, "Where in the NT do we see God telling the church to buy buildings and institutionalize?" True, but where did He say not to?

One has to consider that for a little over 300 years the church didn’t institutionalize nor did it pursue buildings or the aggregation of wealth. Christians didn’t even duplicate the synagogue patterns in friendlier times (remember the persecution wasn’t constant nor was it empire wide). I don’t see it as even necessary for God to have said “not to”. I see the church in its purist form expanding with record growth, ministry, miracles, and impact during this period. Once the church was romanized and institutionalized its glory began to fade. I believe there is a reason the church didn’t pursue institutionalization even once in 300 years. I believe their model was deliberate. Even when the church did institutionalize and embrace buildings and such things I find it noteworthy that it wasn’t even the Church pushing for such changes, instead it was Constantine and the Roman government. The very same crowd that brought us the Trinity and the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church brought us the institutionalization of the church. These weren’t changes that were coming from within the church. So, one could hardly argue that the Church (once relieved of persecution) reformed its methods. No, these changes were made to co-opt the power of Christianity and marry it to the Roman society.

I have a few questions.

What if God began calling a man into the house church movement in the United States? Should he follow the Lord?

Why are pastors of institutional churches so hostile to house churches? Especially when they are growing in the US and reaching those the institutional church is incapable of reaching? Why can’t both exist together? Certainly there is room for both. If God isn’t in it we’ll see it fall to the wayside and folks will return to traditional church. But if God is in it….we could find ourselves resisting the Lord.

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Amen. It's a good discussion.

Yes , It isa good discussion.

I'm not advocating disolving all church house church, don't tear down what is already built, just suppliment the existing church with a more effiecent structure.

[ChristopherHall]

You said, "House church networks in China and Canada are generating an unbelievable amount of funds for foreign missions. I suggest you look into it. It's one of their crowning achievements." Actually I have. In fact, I have been to China, been to underground churches. They are POOR! In fact if it weren't for American dollars being funneled in they would really struggle. The reason for their success is because they are willing to die and go to prison for what they believe. The Chinese pray for persecution to come to America so that we will once again get serious about what we are called to.

Theoretically, you are right. Without overhead a small group of people can do that. The problem is you would be hard pressed to show me 1 out of 50 house churches that even remotely is doing that.

There is a network of house churches in our community that is doing exactly this. It’s rather large.

[ChristopherHall]

You said, "Our buildings can become an idolatrous thing." Yes they can and I've seen Pastors with the mentality of "mines bigger than yours" but I think for the most part this isn't true. There's a reason why the scripture tells us that the children of darkness are wiser than the children of light. First impressions make a difference. Businesses understand that the appearance of their facility is going to make an impact on a persons decision to do business with them. Thinking of this in a modern world and mindset, a sinner coming to a church has a carnal thinking process. They're going to look at the building, the carpet, the colors, and so forth. Plus, we represent God we should represent Him with excellence.

I think that where ever one’s treasure is one’s heart is there also. If a church sinks 80% or more of it’s resources into buildings and property…that’s where it’s heart is.

I know you’re offering an example from the business world…but personally I think that it’s unwise to employ worldly marketing tactics when it comes to church. That’s why Americans are increasingly becoming skeptical about the traditional church…it’s become just another business. Also I disagree with the idea that sinners are impressed with our buildings. We have the largest and most beautiful facilities in Christian history…yet church attendance is declining and fewer and fewer people are turning to the church for spiritual instruction. If you were correct…we’d see record growth and steadily rising church attendance across the board.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Bro-Larry

Yes , It isa good discussion.

I'm not advocating disolving all church house church, don't tear down what is already built, just suppliment the existing church with a more effiecent structure.

Amen.

Most house churches don’t think we should completely dissolve the traditional model. (The Bible doesn't "command" one model over another.) But traditional pastors are often very hostile to house churching. I think it will take both models.

I see the house church as ideal for reaching dense inner city areas where buying a property to build a traditional church is hard to come by. I’m dead set against churches that move way out into the boonies of suburbia to build unless they’re specifically trying to reach suburbia. Our cities are a virtual sea of souls. If a house church pastor discipled 12 men to launch additional house churches in a densely populated city, each aiming to multiply by doing the same with at least a third of their congregants, the church would grow exponentially throughout densely populated areas. We’re seeing this with a fellowship in Dayton Ohio. I’m meeting people from this house church group nearly everywhere I go. LOL The goal is souls. Not money, not property. Souls. Nothing but souls. Souls. Not carpet, not a mortgage payment, not even a paycheck. Souls.

These house churches are composed of good teaching, edifying dialogue, good food, and fellowship. People love them.

*Side note here. The house church network in our city owns a rather large facility as its headquarters. LOL The facility serves as an educational center throughout the week and they meet there semi-regularly for corporate worship and teaching from the area overseer. Their more regular meetings are home based though.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Amen.

Most house churches don’t think we should completely dissolve the traditional model. (The Bible doesn't "command" one model over another.)...

I think it will take both models.

So true...

[Sister Alvear]

I am very grateful the Lord gave us a large building after 30 years of mission work in south Brazil in tiny buildings and house churches because year after year it became harder and harder to rent places for our conventions or whatever...It is really against our government rules to rent out their schools like they once did to believers. !0 years ago God provided land and we begin building a large building (for Brazil) and it has proved a blessing.

We keep the building nice, nothing fancy but nice for our poor area because God provided it for us and we do not have to go before pagan people and beg them for the use of a school for a conference but to us that is all it is...a building...the church is us the people and at any time if the government should take it from us that is all it is blocks and cement...the real church is the people and most of us know at some time that will happen in our communist pronged country.


Since I am a firm believer that the church will go through persecution That may be a deciding factor in my way of thinking…..

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I have a few questions.

What if God began calling a man into the house church movement in the United States? Should he follow the Lord?

Why are pastors of institutional churches so hostile to house churches? Especially when they are growing in the US and reaching those the institutional church is incapable of reaching? Why can’t both exist together? Certainly there is room for both. If God isn’t in it we’ll see it fall to the wayside and folks will return to traditional church. But if God is in it….we could find ourselves resisting the Lord.

I think the answers to your questions are very simple. We do what God says. I don't know that Pastors are hostile to house churches. I do know that some are hostile to anything that they think will negatively affect the success of their church, but again that is a heart issue.

As far as the calling I can give an example of myself. I had transferred to Colorado (from California) with my job and after about 15 months I sensed the Lord wanting me to go back to California. I personally hated Colorado. Could stand living there. Beautiful place to visit, but did not want to stay there. I realized that my own personal desires could be influencing me on what "God was telling me." In the end I did come to a full belief that it was God and not just me and it has proven to be the case ever since. My point is, a lot of people say God is calling them to something when in fact it is just want they want.

My test of whether it was God, "It works." God does not fail EVER. I once heard a man in ministry say, "God had called me into an evangelical ministry and I went bankrupt, but I praise God because if I hadn't gone bankrupt I wouldn't be in this ministry now." It's not hard to judge that word, God wasn't in the first move or at some point in the move the guy got away from God.

We should learn to follow the Lord whether we like where He is saying to go or not.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I think that where ever one’s treasure is one’s heart is there also. If a church sinks 80% or more of it’s resources into buildings and property…that’s where it’s heart is.

I know you’re offering an example from the business world…but personally I think that it’s unwise to employ worldly marketing tactics when it comes to church. That’s why Americans are increasingly becoming skeptical about the traditional church…it’s become just another business. Also I disagree with the idea that sinners are impressed with our buildings. We have the largest and most beautiful facilities in Christian history…yet church attendance is declining and fewer and fewer people are turning to the church for spiritual instruction. If you were correct…we’d see record growth and steadily rising church attendance across the board.

You quoted a scripture therefore obviously true, but there is also a reality that has nothing to do with the treasure of the heart. I live in California, it doesn't matter where you are your property is going to be a high percentage of your budget. If you are in Los Angeles to San Diego or the bay area of San Francisco your church is going to be a major part of your budget renting.

God has a perfect system. Like now in the political races they keep using the saying, "Its the economy." Well in the church world, "It's the heart". Get the heart right and everything else will work