Why do we use trinitarian..........

That Ferd guy said he is going to believe something to his dying day?

I think that is a bit presumptuous. No one knows what they are going to believe to their dying day, to say this would mean you believe yourself to be omnicient.

Is there not a SEARCH for truth? Your true belief is nothing more than an understanding. Do any of us have 100% truth? No, there are things we believe that are common, but we all have a different mental picture of who and what God is.

There was a man who gave his wife the power to withhold his ability to donate/contribute financially to anything in the event he changed his beliefs. Well, later in life, it happened, his beliefs changed and his wife ran off with all his money.

The moral of the story is that it doesn't matter what is holding you to the truth you embrace today, you can never say you will never change.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Sorry, Chan, I wasn't clear. I can't find the teaching or concept of the Trinity in the Bible. It's not taught in the OT or the NT. I didn't mean the word, Trinity. I quoted from the creed CARM had listed. I believe those at CARM think of themselves as being ORTHODOX.

No, they consider themselves orthodox, not Orthodox. The difference is not just in the capitalizing of the first letter. There are differences between the Eastern Church (which became the Orthodox Church after the great schism) and the Western Church (which became the Roman Catholic Church after the great schism).

Then why don't they just say 'same substance' instead of God. The way I understand when God speaks of himself in the Bible, He is not calling himself a substance. ie: Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed says "of one essence with the Father." The Greek word they used was homoousion (same substance/essence).

I agree with you that eternally begotten is an oxymoron. Also why would the Spirit proceeding from the Father necessitate that the Spirit is a different person than the Father instead of a manifestion of the same God.

The term "person" was never used in the earliest Creeds (and not just because English didn't exist as a language then). Where the problem arises is in the confusion that came about when translating the Greek word "hypostasis" that Cyril in the fifth century insisted should be used for Father, Son and Holy Spirit individually instead of prosopon. Hebrews 1:3 translates "hypostasis" as "person" in the KJV and applied it to God ("the express image of [God's] person") but Cyril changed the trinity doctrine (at least "changed" if we look at how people today think of the doctrine) by applying the Greek equivalent of "person" individually to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It was mainly under the influence of the Cappadocian Fathers that the terminology (hypostasis) was clarified and standardized, so that the formula "Three Hypostases in one Ousia" came to be everywhere accepted as an epitome of the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This consensus, however, was not achieved without some confusion at first in the minds of Western theologians, who had translated hypo-stasis as "sub-stantia" (substance, and see also Consubstantial) and understood the Eastern Christians, when speaking of three "Hypostases" in the Godhead, to mean three "Substances," i.e. they suspected them of Tritheism. But, from the middle of the fourth century onwards the word came to be contrasted with ousia and used to mean "individual reality," especially in the Trinitarian and Christological contexts. With regard to the doctrine of the Trinity, hypostasis is usually understood with a meaning akin to the Greek word prosopon, which is translated into Latin as persona and then into English as person. The Christian view of the Trinity is often described as a view of one God existing in three distinct hypostases/personae/persons. It should be noted, though that the Latin "persona" does not mean the same thing as the English "person."


You might want to read this: http://www.amazon.com/God-Three-What...2970254&sr=8-1

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, they consider themselves orthodox, not Orthodox. The difference is not just in the capitalizing of the first letter. There are differences between the Eastern Church (which became the Orthodox Church after the great schism) and the Western Church (which became the Roman Catholic Church after the great schism).

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed says "of one essence with the Father." The Greek word they used was homoousion (same substance/essence).

Do you have a link for the Eastern Churches version of the creed? I have a Christian History and Biography magazine that highlights the Eastern Orthodox church. And I also have your book. I haven't read much of either yet. Other books keep bumping up to the top of my reading list. I'm finishing Verbal Bean's book on the gifts of the Spirit, then I was going to read a book by Bounds on prayer that PP recommended.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Do you have a link for the Eastern Churches version of the creed? I have a Christian History and Biography magazine that highlights the Eastern Orthodox church. And I also have your book. I haven't read much of either yet. Other books keep bumping up to the top of my reading list. I'm finishing Verbal Bean's book on the gifts of the Spirit, then I was going to read a book by Bounds on prayer that PP recommended.

Here's the link from one Orthodox source: http://www.antiochian.org/674

E. M. Bounds wrote several books on prayer; all of them are well worth reading.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Better question. Ask them if Jesus is the Father.

Bad theology! This is what gets OP's in trouble so many times. Jesus is NOT the Father. Jesus Christ is God manifest in flesh. There was a difference between Jesus and the Father. The Father did not have flesh and bone. He created it. God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself. This is why the label "Jesus only" fits the way some think.

I am Oneness through and through and do not believe in more than ONE in God or in heaven, but there was a twoness to Jesus Christ. Spirit and Flesh. God made it that way. Not two persons, two natures. Jesus was the God/Man and not just God or Man.

Get your theology straight and someone might listen.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Bad theology! This is what gets OP's in trouble so many times. Jesus is NOT the Father. Jesus Christ is God manifest in flesh. There was a difference between Jesus and the Father. The Father did not have flesh and bone. He created it. God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself. This is why the label "Jesus only" fits the way some think.

I am Oneness through and through and do not believe in more than ONE in God or in heaven, but there was a twoness to Jesus Christ. Spirit and Flesh. God made it that way. Not two persons, two natures. Jesus was the God/Man and not just God or Man.

Get your theology straight and someone might listen.

Very well said!

[sola gratia]

See how even within oneness ranks there are a variety of opinions. I have spent years studying this... intensly... I lean towards trinitarianism as a result of those studies... however it is flawed.... AS ARE ALL GODHEAD DOCTRINES

It is finite man's best attempt to understand infinite God

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

JW, I will leave this discussion.

good choice ...

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Sorry, Chan, I wasn't clear. I can't find the teaching or concept of the Trinity in the Bible. It's not taught in the OT or the NT. I didn't mean the word, Trinity. I quoted from the creed CARM had listed. I believe those at CARM think of themselves as being ORTHODOX.

Oi vey!!! Let me help you out here!!


(1 John 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(Mark 1:9) And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
(Mark 1:10) And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
(Mark 1:11) And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Mark 1:12) And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.



(John 16:27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
(John 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(John 1:2) The same was in the beginning with God.


These verses are interesting because they note the unity of GOD’s oneness with the distinctions of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost….
1) the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
2) I came out from God - I came forth from the Father
3) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh_17:5; “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”


(1 Corinthians 1:3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 1:1) Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

(1 Timothy 1:2) Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

(1 John 1:3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

That’s probably enough for now…. Sheesh the concept is ALL over the BIBLE!!!

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Then why don't they just say 'same substance' instead of God. The way I understand when God speaks of himself in the Bible, He is not calling himself a substance. ie: Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.




I agree with you that eternally begotten is an oxymoron.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, ...“I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father."

John 17:5 "And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

John 17:8 ...[they] truly understood that I came forth from Thee, and they believed that Thou didst send Me.

John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Rom. 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin……..

1 John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Also why would the Spirit proceeding from the Father necessitate that the Spirit is a different person than the Father instead of a manifestion of the same God.

Because he is spoke of in a personal manner… having personal functions and is given some sort of independence
(Luk 3:21) Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, (Luk 3:22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

(Acts 28:25) Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers…..

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Corinthians 13:14)

(1 John 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

Here's the link from one Orthodox source: http://www.antiochian.org/674

E. M. Bounds wrote several books on prayer; all of them are well worth reading.

Thanks for the link.
I have the Complete works on prayer by Bounds.