Chris Reed

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I've seen it scores of times from apostolic pulpits. I've been used, too.

I do know that this issue of use has something -- likely mostly -- to do with COMPASSION and love. Before Paul corrected the Corinthians about the gifts in chapter 14 after listing them in chapter 12, chapter 13 talks about LOVE/CHARITY. And look at the first verse in Chapter 14:

1 cor 14:14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Imagine someone using the word of knowledge like Jesus and knowing the woman at the well had five husbands, and was living with someone else's husband, and that person had a JUDGMENTAL nature and was condemning. Condemnation ALWAYS accompanies legalism. Even Paul said that LAw was a "ministration of condemnation!" God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

What?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

God cannot use people in the gifts who have no compassion.

Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by Esaias

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

Originally Posted by diakonos

What?

Was it not previously argued that operation of gifts is independent of moral character or doctrinal orthodoxy?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But He can use fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, sodomites, and heretics?

Agree with your point. Neither shall these enter Heaven.

Perhaps this could apply?

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 cor 1: 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

As regards 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, you might read "so that ye come behind in no gift" as a statement of purpose, not a statement of reality. Clearly, we know Corinth was a mess in need of severe rebuke and censure.

Later in chapter 4, Paul tells them when he comes, he is going to investigate their power, not their speech or knowledge, because knowledge puffs up and the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Clearly, Paul had major doubts about how much power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit was actually occurring in Corinth at that time.

Finally, as it relates to 1 Corinthians 12:11, there is no doubt there, that God gives the gifts according to His own will, and after a description of these gifts and teaching about what it means to be the Body of Christ, and explaining that God placed apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and etc. into that Body, the first thing Paul rhetorically asks them is "Are all apostles? Are all prophets?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-29). So, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, is it not possible Paul is keeping within his own established elsewhere context of signs and wonders and divers miracles chiefly pertaining to the ministry of Apostles?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Jesus speaks to His Disciples a good while in John 13-17.

I am struck with what He says in John 14:12 "He who believes in me..."

Is He speaking only to the Apostles here? I think not.

Perhaps Jesus means every believer for all time everywhere, with His use of "anyone who believes", or perhaps "anyone who believes" is a subset under the superset "apostle". If so, it would indicate something like "anyone [of you apostles] who believes..." It is certainly worth asking, because, as said, Acts plays itself out only a matter of a couple of months later, and the greater works Jesus spoke of were not produced by the entire Body of Christ. Rather, it specifically denotes that isn't the case every time it specifically mentions apostles only.

John 17:20 makes that apparent - "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they may believe that you sent Me."

While the general context is the same (Christ's discourse from 13-17), the specific context in John 17 is different, particularly verse 20.

The whole premise of John 13-17 is that Jesus and the Father are one, making Jesus God. Secondly, that He will send the Comforter who will abide with us forever. He identifies that Comforter as Himself - John 14:18 " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

What does this have to do with whether or not the greater works statement applies to all believers everywhere or to those especially and uniquely gifted by Christ?

John 15:4 "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me."

Notice that in Philippians 1:10-11, Paul and Timothy are addressing the "saints" who are in Philippi - "...(11)being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

Now, notice the example Jesus sets in John 5:20 " For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel."

He turns around and conveys that upon all those who believe - John 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with my Father."

The conclusion - we see in John 13-17 that Jesus was NOT speaking only to His Disciples and therefore, greater things are passed to those who believe the Word and are filled with His Spirit.

You haven't really proven your point. You've only woven some verses together because they have some of the same words in them.

First, which you haven't addressed as of yet, is the problem of John 21:25 regarding the nearly limitless works Jesus performed. Any consideration of "greater works" has to keep this verse in view.

Second, John 17:20, which you brought up, helps show Christ's discourse was to the apostles. Jesus said He wasn't just praying for the apostles (that is, the 11 remaining men who accompanied Him to the Passover Seder in chapter 13), but for all those who would come to believe on Him through their word. This shows that up until now, Jesus didn't really have everyone else in the world who would later come to believe in Him in mind. This was a crucial, intensive training session for the apostles, to get them ready for the crucifixion and resurrection and gift of the Holy Spirit.

We weren't there. So, not to us. This doesn't mean it's not for us, but it wasn't to us. For example, when you received the Holy Spirit, do you believe at that moment in time, Jesus prayed for the Father to send another Comforter?

I doubt you do. But why? Because Jesus praying to the Father for another Comforter is an already fulfilled reality that happened a long time ago. So, Jesus isn't praying to the Father, requesting that God allow Him to send the Holy Spirit to every next person who is being born again. It's already been accomplished. As such, it's clear Jesus saying that wasn't "to us", even though it is for us, for our understanding and faith.

Of course, we can get into "obeying" the Word, which is where our faith takes us. But, I don't think it is necessary, as we all understand that.

I am remembering Bishop Jack Cunningham who spoke at the last Youth Conference. He said, words to effect, "You wonder about these men and women of God who have done great things. Well, I can tell you that they didn't sit around binging on The Office."

That comment tells us where the problem lies in carrying out "greater things than these" - it is about commitment.

I am sure that when Brother Bernard's FIL died during their church service and was raised from the dead, as one example most everyone is aware of, he wasn't scratching his head thinking: "Does "greater" mean in scope, degree, or magnitude? In quantity? All of the above?"

No, he didn't stop and ask those questions, He responded under the direction and unction of the Spirit and his FIL was raised up. Hallelujah!

All of the scriptures you quoted at the end of your comments only tell me that the Disciples are teaching us, by example as did Jesus Christ.

While I agree that commitment is certainly lacking in many places with many people, commitment in and of itself is not the only factor. The five gifts that Christ gave to the church, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher, are given by grace (Ephesians 4:7-11). You can't make Jesus give that grace to you by your commitment, or else, it's not of grace, but of your works. You can commit yourself to being faithful to the Lord to obey His will and His will, will be done in your life, and if His will is for you to receive such grace, so as to become one of the five gifts, it will happen at His discretion. But not just because you are committed.

Additionally, you have to ask yourself, how many fully committed, faithful believers are out there in the world at large who are not, and so far, never have, performed greater works than Christ? You indict them all as uncommitted and unfaithful and act as their judge by merely suggesting they must lack commitment, that is, something is wrong with them because they aren't doing these greater works you say they ought to be doing by sheer commitment alone.

Sister, have you done greater works, whether in scope, degree, magnitude, or quantity, than Jesus? Know anyone who has? Are you then uncommitted? Binge-watching The Office?

And as it regards Dr. Bernard, you may need to consider whether or not he is an apostle. If he is, would it not be expected that with such an apostleship comes the grace to perform signs, wonders, and divers miracles, like raising the dead to life?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I claim that the teaching of the gifts is so lacking among many apostolics that there is a lack of the gifts, themselves. Not saying I am not in need of learning, or I would be operating more myself.

Whatever lies unattended and ignored from the Scriptures gets forgotten and unpracticed by believers. This is true, but keep in mind that there is also a terrible supply of horrendous doctrine regarding the gifts, so much so, that it may be God does not supply their use until the truth about the charismata prevails.

It may also be that He has other reasons for withholding them.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I totally believe and agree with that!

What Gospel did Jesus preach? In the four Gospels, it says that Jesus came and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. What was that? It wasn’t Acts 2:38. That hadn’t come about yet. The Gospel is the Good News. He was the King, He brought with Him the Kingdom and showed them what the Kingdom was like. In the Kingdom of God, there is no cancer, no deafness, etc. when you bring Jesus into a situation, anything anti-Kingdom has to leave.

I don’t know what we think we are preaching and believing today. Being happy with Sunday School classes, etc., isn’t going to cut it.

Regarding the emboldened text above:

WHAT?

Saints in the kingdom of God get and die from cancer. Deaf saints abound, as well. Are these then anti-Kingdom because they end up diseased and died or are never recovered from their deafness? Jesus isn't involved with them because their health concerns didn't leave when He showed up in their life?

Or maybe you think He left and forsook them because their so-called "anti-Kingdom" maladies made Him vacate for some unknown, un-Scriptural reason?

One wonders, then, when does this anti-Kingdom nonsense have to leave? Because if Jesus is involved in your life, and you are yet prattling this trash, then clearly it doesn't have to leave just because Jesus was brought into your situation.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by diakonos

What?

The types of people Esaias mentioned are lawless people, some of whom were in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's writing, the church which it is believed literally "came behind in no gift". So, if I am understanding Esaias correctly, how is it that if you lack compassion, God can't use you because you're a legalist who condemns, but if you're a sinner of a different stripe but are generally speaking, compassionate, God can use you just fine?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

As regards 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, you might read "so that ye come behind in no gift" as a statement of purpose, not a statement of reality. Clearly, we know Corinth was a mess in need of severe rebuke and censure.

Later in chapter 4, Paul tells them when he comes, he is going to investigate their power, not their speech or knowledge, because knowledge puffs up and the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Clearly, Paul had major doubts about how much power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit was actually occurring in Corinth at that time.

Finally, as it relates to 1 Corinthians 12:11, there is no doubt there, that God gives the gifts according to His own will, and after a description of these gifts and teaching about what it means to be the Body of Christ, and explaining that God placed apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and etc. into that Body, the first thing Paul rhetorically asks them is "Are all apostles? Are all prophets?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-29). So, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, is it not possible Paul is keeping within his own established elsewhere context of signs and wonders and divers miracles chiefly pertaining to the ministry of Apostles?

There have been times when God has used me in spiritual gifts and has anointed me to teach bible studies to lost people, and I have never held a leadership position.
So I have to conclude that the gifts are not limited to the Apostles and Prophets.