Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

It doesn’t undermine it. But, if you want it to, then Ill say congratulations. LOL.
I don’t know what countries did start off in Rebellion, I was talking about this country, since I know about its Past, its present and the potential future. If you know the answer then let me know.

Well, you were the one attempting to prove that since the US started off in rebellion it was a doomed nation!
When I read that, my first thought was "what nation did not start out in rebellion?".
I could not think of any...

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Well, you were the one attempting to prove that since the US started off in rebellion it was a doomed nation!
When I read that, my first thought was "what nation did not start out in rebellion?".
I could not think of any...

I believe this nation will fall. Nations rise and Nations fall, I don’t believe in the future coming of the Lord, so I’m not speaking about the “coming” destruction. Agree or disagree America did start off in Rebellion, that’s just an Historian fact. The discussion turned into I don’t believe in “good” (or however to word it) rebellion and some believe that the rebellion they had was ok with God. You cant kill as many children as we have done, or completely blaspheme the name of Jesus as this “God Fearing” nation has done, you cant OK the queer and lesbian agenda and say were blessed. This is nation is not built on God, its built on the flesh. And we should all agree with that because God is not bound to a physical kingdom rather a Spiritual kingdom which is the church.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I believe this nation will fall. Nations rise and Nations fall, I don’t believe in the future coming of the Lord, so I’m not speaking about the “coming” destruction. Agree or disagree America did start off in Rebellion, that’s just an Historian fact. The discussion turned into I don’t believe in “good” (or however to word it) rebellion and some believe that the rebellion they had was ok with God. You cant kill as many children as we have done, or completely blaspheme the name of Jesus as this “God Fearing” nation has done, you cant OK the queer and lesbian agenda and say were blessed. This is nation is not built on God, its built on the flesh. And we should all agree with that because God is not bound to a physical kingdom rather a Spiritual kingdom which is the church.

This is just as bad as dispensationalism (pun intended). Either way, the Christians retreat from the battlefield and let the devil run amok. I wonder (((who))) benefits from such ideologies?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I believe this nation will fall. Nations rise and Nations fall, I don’t believe in the future coming of the Lord, so I’m not speaking about the “coming” destruction. Agree or disagree America did start off in Rebellion, that’s just an Historian fact. The discussion turned into I don’t believe in “good” (or however to word it) rebellion and some believe that the rebellion they had was ok with God. You cant kill as many children as we have done, or completely blaspheme the name of Jesus as this “God Fearing” nation has done, you cant OK the queer and lesbian agenda and say were blessed. This is nation is not built on God, its built on the flesh. And we should all agree with that because God is not bound to a physical kingdom rather a Spiritual kingdom which is the church.

I do agree with you "somewhat" on most of what you write.
Nations are a man-made construct that will fail.
I will say that this nation did start off with a recognition of God.

Now, was the civil rights movement a "rebellion"?
Lol.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I do agree with you "somewhat" on most of what you write.
Nations are a man-made construct that will fail.
I will say that this nation did start off with a recognition of God.

Now, was the civil rights movement a "rebellion"?
Lol.

You asked this question, and I don’t want to a storm off either. But, this is my personal OPINION. I’m not racist in any way, I believe as Paul wrote, neither Jew nor Greek, race doesn’t matter. Now, some races do battle different spirits from other races and ill write this about the black community.

As far as the civil rights movement, was it a rebellion, I’m not going to answer that directly I will write and you can figure what I believe.

1- Jesus was never involved in social issues, Jesus came and taught the condition of the heart. The church should NOT be involved in social issues, he told the Pharisees render to Caesar what is due to Caesar, and to God what belongs to God. Side note its always about the flesh and spirit.

2- Paul specifically taught for servants to be obedient to their masters. I believe there are right ways and wrong ways. Israel were slaves to the Egyptians, for 400 something years. And they didn’t burst out of Egypt until Pharaoh told them its ok to leave. They waited on God for their Salvation, our victory comes from God, not by our might, nor by our ways but from him.

3- The blacks sold there own selves into being salves. Now, I’m going to skip a lot because this needs more time and I simply don’t have it. The blacks to this day may be “free” in the physical yet there is a lingering spirit around them of bondage. ANd you can hear about it coming up in the media and in bigger cities, I do believe that they still are oppressed, yet, there oppressed spiritually. Physical that you can see, they are free, yet not spiritually, the black community is still salves.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is just as bad as dispensationalism (pun intended). Either way, the Christians retreat from the battlefield and let the devil run amok. I wonder (((who))) benefits from such ideologies?

What if its Gods will that this nation goes under?

As far as the battlefield, as this nation continues to fall, you should have plenty of warfare with the devil and his lieutenants that you could want.

Who benefits, the church. There is coming a time, that what’s going to supply your need is raw faith. The church should thrive on opposition, that’s how it grows.

[votivesoul]

The thing about authority, is that it is God-given, and can be abused by the recipient. Those granted authority by God can, have, and frequently do overstep their bounds. And many presume to think that they have more authority than they do, or that more people are under their authority than actually are.

In these cases, the only moral action is to deny them, and so, be in submission to God.

A case in point:

King Saul and Doeg.

When Saul ordered the deaths of the priests from Nob, no one would fall on them for the fear of God to murder His priests. But not Doeg. He cared not, and so, slew them all at Saul's command.

Those who feared God and wouldn't obey Saul were morally right in doing so. Doeg, while being obedient to Saul, was in transgression and sin.

So then, when people in authority presume to authorize unrighteousness, they must of necessity be rejected and disobeyed, so that obedience to the Father may be maintained.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I do agree with you "somewhat" on most of what you write.
Nations are a man-made construct that will fail.
I will say that this nation did start off with a recognition of God.

Now, was the civil rights movement a "rebellion"?
Lol.

Nations are NOT a "man-made construct". Nations are God-made:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts:17:26

You are confusing "states" with nations. By "state" I mean a juridical society, ie a government claiming jurisdiction over a landmass, etc.

The Biblical meaning of "nation" is a people having a common ancestor and sharing a common culture. In other words, 1 or more tribes related to one another by ancestry. The Greek term is "ethnoi" from which we get the word ethnic. A nation then, Scripturally, is an ethnic grouping.

Biblically, the way God designed it, a nation is a related group of people belonging to the same ethnic grouping. Nowadays, people believe in what can be called "the proposition nation". A proposition nation is an attempt to create a kingdom or state whose unifying center is an idea (proposition) or set of ideas, as opposed to the Biblical foundation of ancestry and ethnic affinity. Babel, the Babylonian empire, Rome, etc were all "proposition nations". In fact, all empires are such, and must be, because they attempt to unify different ethnicities around the central idea, displacing family and tribal loyalty with loyalty to the state and it's ideas.

Interestingly even though the Kingdom of God is universal (global, international) in scope, it still retains national identitues as cohesive and distinct units, unlike statism and empire:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Revelation:15:4

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation:21:24

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation:22:2

For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psalm:22:28

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psalm:67:4

Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psalm:72:11

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Psalm:82:8

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah:2:2

So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isaiah:52:15

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah:4:2

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel:7:14

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nations are NOT a "man-made construct". Nations are God-made:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts:17:26

You are confusing "states" with nations. By "state" I mean a juridical society, ie a government claiming jurisdiction over a landmass, etc.

The Biblical meaning of "nation" is a people having a common ancestor and sharing a common culture. In other words, 1 or more tribes related to one another by ancestry. The Greek term is "ethnoi" from which we get the word ethnic. A nation then, Scripturally, is an ethnic grouping.

Biblically, the way God designed it, a nation is a related group of people belonging to the same ethnic grouping. Nowadays, people believe in what can be called "the proposition nation". A proposition nation is an attempt to create a kingdom or state whose unifying center is an idea (proposition) or set of ideas, as opposed to the Biblical foundation of ancestry and ethnic affinity. Babel, the Babylonian empire, Rome, etc were all "proposition nations". In fact, all empires are such, and must be, because they attempt to unify different ethnicities around the central idea, displacing family and tribal loyalty with loyalty to the state and it's ideas.

Interestingly even though the Kingdom of God is universal (global, international) in scope, it still retains national identitues as cohesive and distinct units, unlike statism and empire:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Revelation:15:4

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation:21:24

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation:22:2

For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psalm:22:28

O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psalm:67:4

Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Psalm:72:11

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Psalm:82:8

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah:2:2

So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isaiah:52:15

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah:4:2

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel:7:14

What are your thoughts on this scripture?

Matthew 4:8-9
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The previous “temptation” was describing Jerusalem, so we understand this verse isn’t JUST describing Jerusalem but I personally believe all the kingdoms of their known world, how far that travels I’m not sure. Yet, scripture does say Satan had them in his possession to temp the Lord with, and the Lord never rebuked him for stating that those kingdoms are not his to give away. Would you agree that when Jesus told Pilate...

John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The word “world” in this instance means KOSMOS, which is our literal world. Correct me if I’m wrong, is it fair to say that nations that are built after the cross are built on mans agenda? Old Testament I believe your correct with the nation building. However, I believe through scripture he (Jesus) is not interested in any kingdom or nation other than the Church. He’s interests are in the church, the bride of Christ, the body of Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

What are your thoughts on this scripture?

Matthew 4:8-9
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The previous “temptation” was describing Jerusalem, so we understand this verse isn’t JUST describing Jerusalem but I personally believe all the kingdoms of their known world, how far that travels I’m not sure. Yet, scripture does say Satan had them in his possession to temp the Lord with, and the Lord never rebuked him for stating that those kingdoms are not his to give away. Would you agree that when Jesus told Pilate...

John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The word “world” in this instance means KOSMOS, which is our literal world. Correct me if I’m wrong, is it fair to say that nations that are built after the cross are built on mans agenda? Old Testament I believe your correct with the nation building. However, I believe through scripture he (Jesus) is not interested in any kingdom or nation other than the Church. He’s interests are in the church, the bride of Christ, the body of Christ.

The devil offered Him the kingdoms, not the nations. There is a difference, as I pointed out. A nation is a people. A kingdom is a government. Additionally, "the devil is a liar", so there is no reason to believe the devil could deliver on any promise, thus there is no reason to believe the devil owns or controls the kingdoms of the world, in the sense that he could deliver them to whoever he wanted to. Third, they are kingdoms of the kosmos or world system, not "planet earth", an important difference.

The Bible nowhere teaches that "nations that came into existence after the cross are manmade" or any such thing. The old and the new testament are united in affirming that God is interested in nations being saved. The church is the congregation of Israel under the new covenant, teaching all nations to obey God. As such it (the church) is international in scope, but this by no means implies God is a communist who believes in the abolition of nations.