2 Peter 3

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Gee I never realized that!

Look at it this way then. If WE in this time dont have a decent Bible translation, altho I have about 15 printed versions within my reach not to mention dozens if not hundreds available at a computer click, think of the saints before us.

For hundreds of years most of them could not even read! Much less have hope of owning a "Bible". Their faith stood in what a priest or preacher told them. Do you really think they had these FANTASTIC systems of belief like you see on this forum? Things so complicated to understand people cant even discern that men teach that Jesus came in 70ad? Why do they defend this stuff?

Does YOUR Pastor know YOU DO?

Its possible that MOST disciples of Jesus IN OUR DAY dont own their own Bible.

(Not necessarily in that order)

[Michael The Disciple]

Chosen

What they are saying is they don't see those events in what would be a orthodox Way. One told me "that the ressurection happens when you die, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

So its based on the Catholic heresy of immortal soul that outright denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now no one I repeat no one said Jesus came in 70 AD once and for all. So therefore it's not the same as the teaching of hymenaeus and Philetus. So your argument is moot. You can't even understand their argument, because you keep saying this is what they believe.

They teach that THIS OCCURED in the first century.

1 Thess 4:15-17

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If your ok with that nothing more to discuss!

[houston]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

They teach that THIS OCCURED in the first century.

1 Thess 4:15-17



If your ok with that nothing more to discuss!

If you would have had the discussion about “air,” you would have the answer to this. But you chose not.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by houston

If you would have had the discussion about “air,” you would have the answer to this. But you chose not.

So now be honest.

Did this occur in 70ad? Yes or no?

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yea I chose not to discuss a word by word wrangling. BUT dont forget I BEGGED ANYONE who wanted to explain this doctrine to LAY IT OUT in the thread. Then we or "I" as the case may be could examine it.

But guess what? You all were to ASHAMED to put your name on it. No one DARED to even lay out a presentation of the doctrine that could have included "air" and "up" or anything they wanted to lay out.

There were NO TAKERS. Only more mocking and personal attacks to get peoples mind off the topic.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So now be honest.

Did this occur in 70ad? Yes or no?



Yea I chose not to discuss a word by word wrangling. BUT dont forget I BEGGED ANYONE who wanted to explain this doctrine to LAY IT OUT in the thread. Then we or "I" as the case may be could examine it.

But guess what? You all were to ASHAMED to put your name on it. No one DARED to even lay out a presentation of the doctrine that could have included "air" and "up" or anything they wanted to lay out.

There were NO TAKERS. Only more mocking and personal attacks to get peoples mind off the topic.

I posted what I understood the preterist position was, and EB confirmed I understood that position correctly. I guess you missed that exchange?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So you assume I have not studied prophecy? When did you start studying it? I started in 1974. Now you may say that doesnt matter to which I would say why did you bring it up?

I assume you have studied prophecy books, maybe, but not prophecy itself. I assume that because your statements and arguments reveal an amazing lack of awareness of many of the issues, as well as a near total unfamiliarity with the overall themes clearly outlined in both OT and NT prophecy itself.

Would Jesus understand prophecy better than you and me? If there is prophecy we need to know and believe was he not able to present it himself? There is prophecy that may be irrelevant to the saints of God.

But what is relevant and essential for us to understand I believe Jesus taught us either himself or through his apostles. The Holy Spirit is able to condense and tie together anything and everything that is meant for us to know through Jesus Christ.

I contend He has, and that you missed the Lessons, unfortunately.

For prets, or historists, or whoever to think that ONLY THEY have perceived Biblical imagery or "spiritual" application to prophecy is ridiculous. As if others have not read the Old Testament as much (if not more) than they.

I've come across ignorant preterists, ignorant historicists, ignorant futurists, and ignorant idealists. Your argument here is what's ridiculous. Truth is what it is, and either you have it, or don't - regardless of what label you use.

As to the day of the day of the Lord, the day of God, or the day of Christ, referring EXCLUSIVELY in the New Testament to the coming of Jesus for his people I have proved.

If you have a place in the New Testament where one of these phrases is NOT referring to the coming of Jesus for his people please post it. After all if I am saying something wrong I would not want to wreck my credibility by saying it again.

You're kidding, right? No, sadly you aren't. So I can only conclude you literally don't read my posts. In which case there is literally no point in discussion.

Just wow.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My understanding is that most preterists believe resurrection took place in AD 70 as a judicial change of position, not that everybody was raised from the dead physically, but that a change took place in which the departed saints went to heaven and all living saints join with them in heaven when they die. Also, that the same thing applies to the lost: the wicked dead were cast into the lake of fire and all since then who die lost are resurrected into damnation as well. So the resurrection in AD 70 is more of a change of circumstances for mankind relative to their destiny as opposed to an event in which bodies come out of graves.

Of course, not being a preterist myself, I may have this all wrong. Apologies if I am mistaken, I do not want to misrepresent anything.

Yes. This is their doctrine. In 70ad the resurrection of the dead took place. The righteous went to Heaven and the wicked went to Hell.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So its based on the Catholic heresy of immortal soul that outright denies the gospel of Jesus Christ.





They teach that THIS OCCURED in the first century.

1 Thess 4:15-17



If your ok with that nothing more to discuss!

Let me ask you have you ever had a near death experience? I have died before and I wasn't right, and you know what happened. Instant torment the worse torment that you could ever experience, I can't describe it to you. So I'm not buying the soul sleep thing as you just are asleep with no coherence at all. I take that back maybe if you die right with God, I believe their could be a great chasm of peace, but if not it's not going to be any type of rest of incoherence.

So I believe in the coming of the Lord and I do believe in a imminent rapture. Because even John said many Antichrists have already come, and "INIQUITY already doth work in the Sons of disobedience" and that was in the time of the Apostle Paul, how much greater is that true today? When Jesus compares the coming of the Lord to the days of Lot and Noah I ask you once more was their any warning? Or was it business as usual?

I believe in Post trib rapture but I believe the great Tribulation has already came.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes. This is their doctrine. In 70ad the resurrection of the dead took place. The righteous went to Heaven and the wicked went to Hell.

More like they began from that point on to go to hell or heaven after one generation removed from the Apostles. Because that was what Jesus promised in Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Now Mike I can't say I exactly agree with all of that, but it's not what Philetus and Hymenaeus was teaching at all. Even that has to be taken in a pre Epistle context so what they were saying was ludicrous. But that was even pre 70 AD when that happened and you have to be kidding me if you don't believe that when the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy came andwhen they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies" and destruction absolutely came that wasnt a day of visitation of the Lord? Can you say that it wasn't? Because the book of Luke goes into great detail on just that subject numerous times and in that context. Because what I see in prophecy is it can speak of different time periods and spans of time just in 1 sentence to the next. It gives you a range of near future, future and distant future interchangeably. And somethings it proclaims are all 3 at once! Now 70 AD might have been part of the beginning of sorrows but it is spelled out clearly in there, so that is not that event is not insignificant in the span of time.

[Michael The Disciple]

But that was even pre 70 AD when that happened and you have to be kidding me if you don't believe that when the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy came andwhen they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies" and destruction absolutely came that wasnt a day of visitation of the Lord? Can you say that it wasn't?

No and I never have. It was a day of visitation. It was judgment and wrath. It was NOT the fulfillment of the rapture and resurrection.