Are we to repent for our ancestors past sins?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

who is the "we" that should be making restitution or reparation. Are you speaking of a nation or a family or an individual for something they personally did? Restitution or reparation to whom? Those immediately effected, generations after the original victim, who? so there was slavery in the US, who owned slaves? all white people? who were the slaves? all black people? this type of identity politics is what is ruining our country. group classification is the single biggest instigator of hate in our nation and you still push it. individuals should be treated, judged etc as individuals not groups.

That is a very important question. "We" primarily means those of us who are saved and take righteousness as being more than dress codes or personal religious practice. Secondarily, it can also speak to a nation, a family, or individuals for something they personally did, or perhaps didn't do.

Restitution or reparation is not always possible. We have to accept that. And I think that's a point you're making. We agree here.

But when there is a means to right any wrong that still causes pain or loss, no matter how small, and we fail or refuse to even consider it or take the necessary action if known, we will share responsibility for it.

If one's ancestors waged war and stole food producing land from an entire nation, leaving that people to languished in a broken society, with scarce food resources for generations... and those alive today have the means to relieve the pain of that people... and they don't... they are taking part in the feast of stolen bread... and perpetuating the pain, misery, and death inflicted on that people by their fathers. Are they not?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

LOL

I don't think white privilege is the issue. But, it might be a factor in the big ball of mess we're in.

However, your statement does remind me of a video that illustrated a point regarding how white privilege works.

A true Liberal you are.

Romans 9:20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Therefore, there is no such thing as white privilege. Only in the mind of a Socialist who wants everyone and everything equal. The only equality we have is that we agree on the Gospel message.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Now that's funny!
A - maybe you need to refine your position, because this is what I hear.

In order to be saved, you must repent for the sins of your fathers (and mothers, I presume).

I don't see it as a matter of salvation. I see it as a matter of justice and righteousness expected of those who are saved. Personal salvation is entirely an individual thing. And it is a totally different topic. So, I believe we'd both agree on salvation being entirely based on the individual's response to the Gospel.

You gave a very moving example, now let me give you another one.
Let's say your father was a serial adulterer.
Would you need to find the women, husbands, children of the families who he caused anguish and sorrow to and apologize to them?

No. One need only to repent of their own adulteries. One need not seek these people out and apologize for anything. However, if any of these family live within the community and they see the pain in their lives, it isn't going to cause any harm to apologize for what their father had done to them.

Here's a personal story...

My dad actually was a serial adulterer. Vietnam vet, quite the ladies man. He cheated on my mom with the woman who was to become his second wife. He cheated on his second wife. He cheated on his third wife. He sired children in each marriage, and one outside of wedlock. When he died, I had to reach out and try to find my half-brothers (they were all boys). When I contacted them, every one of them were of the opinion that it would be a cold day in hell before they'd attend his funeral. I love my dad, but I didn't always like him or every decision he made. He was a decorated veteran. He was messed up. He not only was a serial womanizer (looking for love in all the wrong places), but he was an alcoholic, and an abusive man. The war left him broken. He even experienced stints of homelessness. And when he hit rock bottom, he'd come crawling back to my mother, his first wife. And she'd do what she could to help him get on his feet, or get him to where he needed to go. While my siblings saw him as a monster. He was my dad. A broken hero. Being a vet myself, I could more than relate. I tried my best to persuade them to attend his funeral. My half-brothers, Ricky and David were adamant. They were going to celebrate his death. At first, Brandon felt the same. But I had an impulse to apologize to Brandon for dad's actions, and how our dad abandoned him just as he did me, David, and Ricky. I explained how I saw our dad, a sin sick broken hero who never found his peace. Brandon cried with me over the phone and we talked. Something in my words helped him begin healing. It helped him begin dumping the bitterness he had held almost his entire life. Brandon decided that he needed to pay his respects to our dad, but he wasn't comfortable speaking at the funeral. With that, Brandon and I both contacted Ricky and David once more. Me, Brandon, and Ricky met up at Ricky's house (he has a wife and kids of his own now). In that back yard, we laughed, cried, and even cursed the foolishness of this man we all called our father. Again, I apologized for him, and shared my thoughts about him as not only his son, but a fellow vet. We did a lot of healing that day. David lives in Buffalo New York, and wouldn't return any calls. In the brief conversation I did have with him, the bitterness and pain was clearly rather deep. Perhaps I'll never know if he'll ever find a way to heal that bitterness. I pray he does.

Dad's funeral was held at the local VA Cemetery, and he was buried with military honors... with three of his four sons in the front row, honoring his service, and honoring the positive memories we had of him. Today, I have two brothers I can contact at any hour of the night. We'd never had each other before, but in the wake of my dad's death, we found our bond. It took tenderness, acknowledgement of wrongs done, and a desire to do what was appropriate for us. Not so much what was appropriate for our father, but for us. And for us, my dad's death opened the communication that allowed healing to begin.

Some have told me that he didn't deserve any of it. Maybe he didn't. However, as I stood there looking over the cemetery, holding dad's flag, and reflecting on dad's memory, I felt that although he did me wrong, no... he did us wrong... we did him right.

Sometimes, an apology, and acknowledging wrongs committed by our fathers can open the door for healing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

A true Liberal you are.

Romans 9:20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Therefore, there is no such thing as white privilege. Only in the mind of a Socialist who wants everyone and everything equal. The only equality we have is that we agree on the Gospel message.

Riiiggggght.

No such thing. You've never benefitted from being white?

I know I have.

And no, I don't feel ashamed of it. It just is what it is. I didn't make the rules in our society. But when I see something wrong, I'm not put out or beholden to some ideology that prevents me from acknowledging it and helping to work to make it right if I can. That's all.

You honestly can't see where generations of slavery, oppression, racism, and denial of even the right to vote could impact a person's opportunities?

I've been effected by privilege from both directions. lol

I'm Scott-Irish. When my ancestors came here, they were routinely denied employment and opportunities (remember NINA?). All we could do is join the military to find opportunity. And I live with the toll that has taken in at least three generations every day.

It's not about white privilege. It's just about privilege. Be it racial or economic, privilege exists.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Riiiggggght.

No such thing. You've never benefitted from being white?

I know I have.

And no, I don't feel ashamed of it. It just is what it is. I didn't make the rules in our society. But when I see something wrong, I'm not put out or beholden to some ideology that prevents me from acknowledging it and helping to work to make it right if I can. That's all.

You honestly can't see where generations of slavery, oppression, racism, and denial of even the right to vote could impact a person's opportunities today?

how has your color caused you to benefit over someone of another color?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Riiiggggght.

No such thing. You've never benefitted from being white?

I know I have.

And no, I don't feel ashamed of it. It just is what it is. I didn't make the rules in our society. But when I see something wrong, I'm not put out or beholden to some ideology that prevents me from acknowledging it and helping to work to make it right if I can. That's all.

You honestly can't see where generations of slavery, oppression, racism, and denial of even the right to vote could impact a person's opportunities today?

I don't deny our country has had these problems, but over time we work through it. Afterall, our country has the shortest history of slavery. There were white people who marched at Selma.

I believe an employer has a right to hire whomever fits the workplace. I was once engaged to a boy whose father was an executive with Southwestern Bell. I remember him ranting that they were passing over more qualified people in order to spread the company with some color. I have talked with teachers who were furious with the busing issues because they were bringing in kids who weren't interested in an education, thus causing those who cared to slow down so others could keep up.

I remember reading an article in Sports Illustrated, not the swimsuit edition, about a black athlete that said the people back home resented him getting a leg up and pressuring him to mentally stay in the hood.

There are a lot of serious issues that we can't work out because people are screaming inequality and racism if we try.

I believe that birds of a feather flock together and that can also be said of a church body. People visit various congregations to find their place.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

how has your color caused you to benefit over someone of another color?

Well, my family was never denied entry to a public pool, and so knowing how to swim was never a problem in my family. I also know that I typically get a warning when pulled over, most of my black friends don't. When I was in the military, those of us who were white typically didn't get the same details the minorities got. Everyone knows who will get put on point. When my attorney and I went out to lunch to talk about details of my divorce, the waitress handed me the bill, like I was the man with the money. People don't cross the street when I'm walking down the street like they are afraid I might rob them, nor do they watch me until I'm out of sight. Girls don't "get on their cell phone" when I walk by them at bus stops downtown. Store security doesn't follow me around. It just is what it is. I don't feel guilty for it. But I'm also not going to deny it either. And I'll be honest, I've worked the "good ol' boy" system for an opportunity or two.

It is what it is. lol

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't see it as a matter of salvation. I see it as a matter of justice and righteousness expected of those who are saved. Personal salvation is entirely an individual thing. And it is a totally different topic. So, I believe we'd both agree on salvation being entirely based on the individual's response to the Gospel.

A - Interesting. You seem to have said that it is not a matter of salvation, but those who are saved will do this.
Seems like you are saying (in a backdoor sort of way) that it is salvational.
Looks like if this was required that the Apostle Paul would have written something about it.
With him doing all that he did against the saints.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well, my family was never denied entry to a public pool, and so knowing how to swim was never a problem in my family. I also know that I typically get a warning when pulled over, most of my black friends don't. When I was in the military, those of us who were white typically didn't get the same details the minorities got. Everyone knows who will get put on point. When my attorney and I went out to lunch to talk about details of my divorce, the waitress handed me the bill, like I was the man with the money.

I wonder if Japanese people experience Yellow Privilege in Japan? Do Hutus experience Hutu Privilege in Burundi? Is there white privilege for Irish living in Liverpool?

People don't cross the street when I'm walking down the street like they are afraid I might rob them, nor do they watch me until I'm out of sight. Girls don't "get on their cell phone" when I walk by them at bus stops downtown. Store security doesn't follow me around.

Do Orientals experience white privilege? Do black guys get nervous when black guys come walking down the street dressed like Easy-E or Snoop Dogg? Do YOU dress like a gangbanger?

Do people cross the street when they see some Almighty Gaylords coming down the sidewalk in Chicago?

It just is what it is. I don't feel guilty for it. But I'm also not going to deny it either. And I'll be honest, I've worked the "good ol' boy" system for an opportunity or two.

It is what it is. lol

[Esaias]

Does white privilege mean there are scholarships, loans, and grants for white people only, for school, business startups, etc?

Does white privilege mean there are White Student Unions at most colleges?

Does white privilege mean an employer is afraid to fire me because I will likely yell racism and sue?

Does white privilege get me a free Starbucks coffee?