A Handmaids Tale

[Esaias]

Furthermore, the Bible does not call upon the church to take over the state by force of arms. Rather, it's job is to teach all men.

As people are regenerated, they become theonomic (supposed to, anyway). They submit to Christ's Lordship in all areas of their lives. As the church lets its light shine, people are drawn to it, to the Lord, to His Truth.

"Regeneration precedes reconstruction". That is, a theonomic society can only be possible in a society that embraces God's Word. Which requires evangelism by the church, PRIOR to any restructuring of a nation to become more obedient to God.

[Amanah]

So would you say the bottom line is that we obviously can't overthrow our govt, and we cant retire from public life and not try to affect our govt. Christians are the conscience of the nation and need to speak truth to the powers that be, which were ordained by God.

What is your opinion on Christians in office? I have always heard that Christians should not seek public office.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Furthermore, the Bible does not call upon the church to take over the state by force of arms. Rather, it's job is to teach all men.

As people are regenerated, they become theonomic (supposed to, anyway). They submit to Christ's Lordship in all areas of their lives. As the church lets its light shine, people are drawn to it, to the Lord, to His Truth.

"Regeneration precedes reconstruction". That is, a theonomic society can only be possible in a society that embraces God's Word. Which requires evangelism by the church, PRIOR to any restructuring of a nation to become more obedient to God.

The key to understanding this is to remember that God establishes all civil government. And, we get the government God deems best. If a people are wholly unrighteous and given over to wanton sin, they get oppressive government. When the people repent, and return to God, they will then get godly government.

The degree to which a government reflects God's Word is determined in large measure by the degree to which the people themselves reflect God's Word.

[Amanah]

awesome discussion, thank you Brother.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

So would you say the bottom line is that we obviously can't overthrow our govt, and we cant retire from public life and not try to affect our govt. Christians are the conscience of the nation and need to speak truth to the powers that be, which were ordained by God.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Christians are to be salt and light.

What is your opinion on Christians in office? I have always heard that Christians should not seek public office.

If the law of God demands righteous rulers, then not only should Christians seek public office, but only Christians should be in public office.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

awesome discussion, thank you Brother.

[Esaias]

Sister Amanah, you ask wonderful, thought provoking questions.

And that's a GOOD thing.

[Aquila]

I'd like to reflect on a few verses...

John 6:15
When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Matthew 20:25-28
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Hebrews 12:28
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

While walking this earth, Jesus had no desire to be an earthly king or to involve Himself in earthly political office in any way. Such was the antithesis of the true Kingdom He had come to establish and it would have prevented Him from completing redemptions plan and going to the cross to bear the sins of mankind.

Jesus points to the princes and rulers (governing officials) of the gentiles lord earthly authority over them. However, it is not to be that way among Christians. We are not to seek to have power or authority over others, instead we are to serve one another in a meek and humble spirit. While this doesn't prohibit holding public office, it does present difficulties, especially should a public office require one to exercise princely authority over others as the gentile rulers do.

Jesus clearly states that His Kingdom is not of this world. If it were, Christ's followers would have rose up in revolutionary zeal to defend Jesus from being delivered unto the Jews. Indeed, the Kingdom is not of this world, and believers should not be engaged in any fight or struggle to establish an earthly Kingdom.

We have received a kingdom that cannot be moved. In the Revelation we see the fruits of the kingdom from all nations, peoples, kindreds, and tongues. Our kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. It has no flag, no boarders, no earthly officials, we speak directly to our King through the Spirit in prayer. There is no priestly class or officials, we are all kings and priests before Him. In this kingdom all are equal before God. There is no distinction between male, female, Jew, Greek, rich, poor, free or bond. All have equal access to the King of Kings. This Kingdom is governed by the Spirit not OT law. It is advanced and maintained by love, mercy, and grace... not OT law. No court can overrule its ways, nor impeach its King. It is a spiritual kingdom that can only be found by those who seek it with all their hearts. It's ways are spiritual, not carnal.

Yes, we are to seek to effect those in human government who do rule us. But not in effort to drag them back into the Law in the hopes that they enforce OT Law. It is to influence them to come to faith in Christ, obey the Gospel, and obey the Law of Christ which is to love God with all one's being and to love others as one's self. Hence, if I desire liberty of conscience in matters of faith, I will desire that all have liberty of conscience in matters of faith. If I desire the right to privacy, I will desire that all have the right to privacy. If I desire the right to vote, I will desire that all have the right to vote. If I desire due process, I will desire that all have due process. The Law of Christ is also known as the Law of Liberty. Why? Because it sets us free from the bondage of the OT law which was only designed to curb the wickedness of a people who didn't have the Holy Spirit. Today, we have a better covenant, with a better law that is written upon the heart, not stone. Like theonomists, we desire that the entire society embrace the Law of Christ, which is loving God and demonstrating our love for God in the love for others. Not through the eyes of Moses through the Law of Moses, but through the mind of Christ. This is why so many of our Founding Fathers declared, "No King But Jesus". No king but Jesus. Perfect human liberty, with the intent of bringing all men into the shining truth of the Law of Liberty. The Christian vision is more of a society without social or political hierarchy, a society in which every citizen answers only to Christ, a society that is held together by the bond of love for one another, not Mosaic Law.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"(I) just don't think capital punishment for everything is a great idea. "

God's Law does not prescribe capital punishment for "everything". The following crimes, however, ARE capital crimes:

Murder
Rape
Adultery
Fornication (whether straight, gay, bestial, etc)
Kidnapping
Blasphemy
Idolatry
Inciting to idolatry
Physically assaulting one's parents
Habitual and incorrigible delinquincy
Cursing one's parents
Willful criminal anarchy (including willful Sabbath-breaking)
Not restraining your animal, if known to be dangerous, and you were warned, and it kills someone.
Witchcraft.
Witness perjury in a capital trial.

There may be one or two more, not sure.

Most of us have committed at least one of the capital offenses above. Under this Christian Regime we'd all be dead if justice was dealt out justly.

God's Law also requires a minimum of two witnesses to the alleged crime. Further, if a witness is found commit perjury (lies) in a capital case, that witness will face the death penalty. In some cases, like a parental complaint of incorrigible delinquincy, the complainant who brings suit is required to take part in the execution of the sentence (which undoubtedly would cut down on the likelihood of bringing the complaint to begin with).

Witnesses can be paid by powerful men with agendas to lie. I would only feel safe in a system that required corroborating evidence that was open for review and examination.

The Law requires witnesses, judges, and procedures.

What are these "procedures" in theonomy?

Thus, "vigilante justice" is not allowed except in certain cases such as government abandoning justice and encouraging crime, or in the case of manslaughter. Although in that latter case, provision is made for the manslaughterer to escape the revenge of his victim's kinfolk by going to a place of refuge for a specified time.

Yes, the cities of refuge are a fascinating study. I believe the church itself is the city of refuge in our day in principle. I think of the illegal aliens among us fleeing to churches of refuge from prosecution and deportation, so that they might find time to appeal to the authorities regarding their individual circumstances.

So, it's not "the death penalty for everything" under Biblical Law.

You really don't understand the spiritual underbelly of the law do you? It condemns. Not only the accused, but also the enforcer. Because all men are guilty of violating the law. Imagine a person being brought before the authorities for adultery or fornication after being caught in the very act. The authorities declare that the Law demands the death penalty. Now Heaven's court is actually in cession. Every individual present is guilty of some sin worthy of death. And yet they are all taking up stones to stone this person for sexual misconduct. How do you think Heaven will respond? You have salivating Pharisees beating their chests demanding that the Law be fulfilled and that the person be executed. You have the individual pleading for mercy. And the authorities over the dispute finds the defendant, "guilty". Now, those who begin picking up stones to execute the Law's penalty of death are revealing their hearts... the one who says, "Wait! This is crazy! I can't do this! I'm just as guilty of other sins. I REFUSE to stone this person!" Their heart is revealed also. And here we see Heaven smile at the one who refused the insanity and God says, "Ah, now you get it, my child!"

The Law will condemn both the accused and the enforcer. Only through grace and mercy can any true righteousness be established... because we're all guilty.

Under man's law, however, the death penalty could, and often has been, demanded for the most ridiculous things. If you smart off to a police officer, for example, you can find yourself dead before you know it, and you will be blamed for "non compliance". Stop paying property taxes? Men with guns will show up and flat out kill you if you don't comply.

If one ends up dead for just smarting off to a police officer, police officers have to be retrained on how to deal with non-violent dissent. Frankly, I think cops are killing more people for these small infractions because they have become cowards who don't want to think, they just want to thump on someone. This is one reason why I support the demilitarization of the police.

Of the thousands audited every year for failing to pay taxes... no one is being killed. And no one comes after you with guns. You get a letter in the mail. Trust me, I've been audited.

Meanwhile, under man's law, murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc are released into the wild after spending several years in a prison. They are usually worse when they get out than when they went in. And their life of crime often continues unabated.

We probably have some agreements here. I believe the criminal justice system needs serious reform. Most in prison are there over a drug offence, while murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc are set free. I think the drug war is an abysmal failure. Nations that treat drug addiction as a public health issue have had better results than nations like ours who treat drug addiction as though it is a criminal offence. I vote we end the drug war and strengthen sentencing for the more heinous crimes you mentioned. And here's where the libertarian comes out in me, if someone is responsibly smoking weed or drinking whisky in the privacy of their own home or in a business establishment like the coffee shops in Amsterdam, it shouldn't be a crime. Now, if they are drinking or smoking themselves into oblivion that's a health issue. They need medical help, not prison time. But the crimes of murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc should mean definite prison time.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

No. As a matter of fact I do not endorse the death penalty.
For the very reasons you list.
However, I believe that it is within the governments rights to sentence someone to death. And by rights, I mean given by God.
And it's not my homework, you are the one that made the claim.

I agree. I'm not out to abolish the death penalty. I'm just saying that me personally, I couldn't be involved in death penalty case in good conscience.