Would you stay in a church if...

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I do that now

You must feel that your thoughts are wrong.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

I agree but from my experience preachers are not willing to even consider something they might have missed if it will involve changing their ways.
That is very bad and definitely not spiritual. Your Holy Ghost should hear the Word.
If you are in-charge/over/whatever a flock you should very careful about what you are teaching them.
I myself left a church because it was teaching my children stuff I didn't agree with. I consider my household my church and it is up to me to make sure what they hear is truth.
Preachers need to be able to separate personal thoughts from God's thoughts. Then we could be in unity, preach truth and have church like God intended
Again I say if we accept anything less than 100% truth, God's coming was in vain because he brought it. Who God sent will speak God's Word

Too many folks are stuck in "denominational doctrine": which I would define as doctrine that does not measure up to scripture;
Definitely: we should be sensitive to the leading if the Holy Spirit and discern that which is our personal opinion;
We need to be wary of the Lord’s admonishment to the “Watchman”;
Yes! We have the ultimate responsibility for our household: “For your ways are not my ways, neither your thoughts
my thoughts…”. We need to make the Lord’s thoughts our thoughts; that His ways may become our ways;
Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The gospel of Jesus Christ (death, burial, resurrection): repentance (lifestyle change), Jesus name baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling (daily walking in what we have received). These are the fundamentals of the body of Christ. the church should be 100% on the gospel. There are many personal convictions being preached that is hurting the effort to spread the gospel.
Pre or post trib? probably don't matter if don't agree, but we must respect others. The adversary is the author of confusion.

Yes, the gospel is the foundation of our faith, and everything else stems from that foundation, and must agree with that foundation.

Pre- or post- (and we should include mid-), don't matter UNLESS one doesn't believe the Lord will come again.
For those who don't believe: we are either in the millenium, in hell, or this life is all there is to heaven.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Too many folks are stuck in "denominational doctrine": which I would define as doctrine that does not measure up to scripture;
Definitely: we should be sensitive to the leading if the Holy Spirit and discern that which is our personal opinion;
We need to be wary of the Lord’s admonishment to the “Watchman”;
Yes! We have the ultimate responsibility for our household: “For your ways are not my ways, neither your thoughts
my thoughts…”. We need to make the Lord’s thoughts our thoughts; that His ways may become our ways;
Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”.

Are you asserting, or even suggesting, that "the ministry" (whom you apparently believe to consist of ONLY "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" - forgive me if I'm amiss in my understanding of that which you've written which has caused me to arrive at such a conclusion) are the ONLY members of the "royal priesthood" (of which every saint is a part - see I Peter 2:9) that have been made to possess 100% of the truth? THAT, my friend, sounds an awfully lot likened to the doctrine of Roman Catholicism which claims that ONLY the priests possess the ability, therefore the authority to interpret the Scriptures. And I MUST, with righteous indignation, and in the strongest terms possible, reject it forthwith!

I would remind you that a "pastor" is a "teacher," as evidenced by the absence of either a comma or semicolon (a punctuation mark used chiefly in a coordinating function between major sentence elements, as independent clauses of a compound sentence) such as is found in Paul's statement of Ephesians 4:11. Even in the ESV, where the word "shepherds" appears, there exists neither comma or semicolon, thus indicating that Paul was simply describing the "function" of a pastor as being a teacher. Accordingly, I am persuaded to believe that Paul was NOT referring to two (3) separate, or distinctly different "functions" of certain individuals whom God has "gifted" with the ability to perform within an assembly of His saints (the Church), rather he was simply and ONLY describing the "function" of a "pastor" as being that of a "teacher."

Secondly, when our Lord stated, and quite explicitly so, that "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it," He was, in essence, stating that ever since the ministry of John the Baptist, when the "kingdom of God" began to be preached by Himself (see Mark 1:14-15), then EVERY MAN (meaning each member of the "kingdom of God") has been "pressed" into the task of preaching about the things of God's kingdom, which MUST include those things that pertain to the Gospel of Christ.

This responsibility DOES NOT rests exclusively with those who "function" in an assembly of saints as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, or pastors" ONLY, but to EVERY member of that body!

Respectfully submitted, NOT as a basis for contention, rather as an expression of my beliefs which (apparently) stand in contradiction with yours, and tendered for the consideration of their merits by you and others.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The gospel of Jesus Christ(death,burial,resurrection). repentance(lifestyle change), Jesus name baptism,and Holy Ghost infilling(daily walking in what we have received). These are the fundamentals of the body of Christ. the church should be 100% on the gospel. There are many personal convictions being preached that is hurting the effort to spread the gospel.
Pre or post trib? probably don't matter if don't agree, but we must respect others. The adversary is the author of confusion.

At least you've gotten ONE thing correct - "The adversary is the author of confusion" - however, concerning the rest, well, I am not quite as confident regarding their veracity.

First, the writer of Hebrews advises us that the "fundamentals of the body of Christ," that is, "the principles of the doctrine of Christ" which forms the "foundation," or elementary teaching of the "church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28), are much, much more than the "death, burial, resurrection of Christ Jesus, repentance (lifestyle change), Jesus name baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling (daily walking in what we have received," as you've written, but MUST also include teachings concerning those things which enable us to "go on unto perfection," that is, by teaching those things pertaining to "faith toward God, ... and of laying on of hands, and of (the) resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

It is the teaching of ALL these things which comprise or make up the "fundamental (teachings) of the body of Christ," therefore the very "foundation" of the New Testament church, and not ONLY those you have indicated! The omission of any one of these is to teach an "incomplete" gospel, plain and simple!

Regarding your statement, "Pre or post trib? probably don't matter if don't agree, but we must respect others," I can only, again, partially agree. Here is why ...

Assuming that you're referring to the widespread and commonly accepted teaching which proclaims that there will be a bodily transfer of an unspecified number of God's chosen people from the earth at an "alleged" secret appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the present era of God's dealings with sinful mankind (an event that is nowhere to be found recorded in the entireity of the sacred Scriptures), AND that these will be exempted from experiencing the common death, then I must respectfully disagree, for, in my opinion, it does indeed matter! Allow me to tell you why I believe so ...

We read in the writings of Jeremiah that he was commaned of God to make yokes and go tell the kings of Edom, Moab, the Ammonites, Tyrus, and Zidon, and unto Zedekiah king of Judah, that He has given their lands into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and that these kings were NOT to take heed to any prophet, or diviner, or dreamer nor enchanter or sorcer, who would tell them not to serve the king of Babylon.

Moreover Jeremiah stated that if all these would serve the king of Babylon for a period of seventy years, then God would allow them to remain residents of their own land (see Jeremiah 27). And so it was, that this prophecy came to pass. God also said by the mouth of Jeremiah that there were to be certain vessels which the Jews used in their worship of Him which the king of Babylon would also take captive, but at the end of the seventy years, He would cause them to be returned to Jerusalem.

But then, following this captivity some years later, there arose in the midst of the congregation of the Jews, a prophet named Hananiah, in the presence of the priests and all the people, saying that the LORD had spoken to him, saying that He had broken the king of Babylon's yoke of bondage upon them, and that He would cause the vessels to be returned to Jerusalem within two full years. Jeremiah was present when Hananiah gave this prophecy, and even said Amen to it, if it be that the LORD had truly spoken such a thing, after which he departed from Hananiah's presence.

But Jeremiah had not travelled very far when the word of the LORD came to him, commanding that he return to where Hananian was, and to tell him, saying, "Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but THOU MAKEST THIS PEOPLE TO TRUST IN A LIE. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, BECAUSE THOU HAST TAUGHT REBELLION AGAINST THE LORD. So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month" (see Jeremiah 28:15-17).

And so it is we are given an example which proves that when God has decreed a thing, and a mortal man arises and teaches something that differs, then that man subjects himself to punishment. The prophet Hananiah was found guilty of teaching something which differed from that which God had prophesied by the mouth of Jeremiah, and in so doing he was found guilty of teaching "rebellion against God" by causing his listeners to place their confidence and trust in the future in that which was, in essence, an outright lie!

Indeed, we MUST take heed to the words that God spake to Ezekiel, saying, "When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HATH DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul" (Ezekiel 3:20-21).

We also find it written in Isaiah 10:1-3, that it matters what mortal man publishes (as if it were truth) about the things which God has commanded His servants the prophets (i.e., spokesmen) to write concerning that which He has and will do: "Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grieviusness which they have oprescribed; to turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they mat rb the fatherless! And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the day of desolation which shall come from afar? To whom will ye flee for help? And where will ye leave your glory?"

Should we not conclude from these examples that when, and if, a man of God takes it upon himself to teach that which differs from the things which God has stated, and most notably those things that are of a prophetic essence, then that man is guilty of teaching "rebellion against God" by endeavoring to persuade God's chosen people to place their trust and confidence in the future in something which can only be described as a "lie"? I, for one at least, certainly think so!

Therefore in response to your question, "Pre or post trib? probably don't matter if don't agree," I must disagree, for there exists sufficient evidence in the examples I've noted which proves that it does matter a LOT!

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Too many folks are stuck in "denominational doctrine": which I would define as doctrine that does not measure up to scripture;

I agree. There is no such thing as "denominational doctrine". One plan, One body - The Church

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Definitely: we should be sensitive to the leading if the Holy Spirit and discern that which is our personal opinion;

Amen to that! For example - Just because you believe that voting is wrong does not make it gospel. I have a bunch of personal opinions but I make sure I separate those from God's Word.

Originally Posted by thephnxman

We need to be wary of the Lord’s admonishment to the “Watchman”;

You know what? This seems to be a preacher's get out of jail free card. "God made me a watchman on the wall so I am allow to dictate your life."

A watchman warns the people. Not my way or hell.

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Yes! We have the ultimate responsibility for our household: “For your ways are not my ways, neither your thoughts
my thoughts…”. We need to make the Lord’s thoughts our thoughts; that His ways may become our ways;

How can a man rule the house of God if he can't rule his own house?

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”.

All I am going to say is the bible tells me you shall know the truth and it will make you free. I feel like preachers (apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors and teachers) have messed up the church. They have lend people to believe that there personal way is truth.

This is exactly why there is so much disunity today. People fail to understand that God told us to work out our salvation.

I totally agree with what good samaritan said. The bible backs up his statements.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

(1) Are you asserting, or even suggesting, that "the ministry" (whom you apparently believe to consist of ONLY "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" -

(2) forgive me if I'm amiss in my understanding of that which you've written which has caused me to arrive at such a conclusion) are the ONLY members of the "royal priesthood" (of which every saint is a part - see I Peter 2:9) that have been made to possess 100% of the truth?

(3) THAT, my friend, sounds an awfully lot likened to the doctrine of Roman Catholicism which claims that ONLY the priests possess the ability, therefore the authority to interpret the Scriptures. And I MUST, with righteous indignation, and in the strongest terms possible, reject it forthwith!

(4) I would remind you that a "pastor" is a "teacher," as evidenced by the absence of either a comma or semicolon (a punctuation mark used chiefly in a coordinating function between major sentence elements, as independent clauses of a compound sentence) such as is found in Paul's statement of Ephesians 4:11. Even in the ESV, where the word "shepherds" appears, there exists neither comma or semicolon, thus indicating that Paul was simply describing the "function" of a pastor as being a teacher.

(5)Accordingly, I am persuaded to believe that Paul was NOT referring to two (3) separate, or distinctly different "functions" of certain individuals whom God has "gifted" with the ability to perform within an assembly of His saints (the Church), rather he was simply and ONLY describing the "function" of a "pastor" as being that of a "teacher."

(6)Secondly, when our Lord stated, and quite explicitly so, that "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it," He was, in essence, stating that ever since the ministry of John the Baptist, when the "kingdom of God" began to be preached by Himself (see Mark 1:14-15), then EVERY MAN (meaning each member of the "kingdom of God") has been "pressed" into the task of preaching about the things of God's kingdom, which MUST include those things that pertain to the Gospel of Christ.

(7)This responsibility DOES NOT rests exclusively with those who "function" in an assembly of saints as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, or pastors" ONLY, but to EVERY member of that body!

(8)Respectfully submitted, NOT as a basis for contention, rather as an expression of my beliefs which (apparently) stand in contradiction with yours, and tendered for the consideration of their merits by you and others.

(1) The ministry FOR the Church is one; the ministry OF the Church, another. As a “teacher”, you should already know the difference;

(2) Yes, you are TERRIBLY amiss; you seem to be interpreting my words as you interpret some of the scriptures;

(3) If you wouild have read my posts with an open mind, you would realize I am no a Catholic; had you refuted my post with “righteous indignation”, I would have submitted to your arguments;

(4) So you believe that the ministry for the Church consists only of four offices? And that the scribes that were ordered to write the Bible used punctuation marks, capital letters, and grammar as we know it today?

(5) Here’s a question: was the Apostle Paul ever a “pastor”? No scripture for that, right? Was he a “preacher”? Yes! Was he a “teacher”? Yes! Was he called to be an “apostle”? Yes! Was he endowed with “gifts” to perform the function or offices to which he was called? Yes!

(6) Your interpretation is not scriptural; you seem to be saying that we have been drafted into the kingdom;

(7) You are, of course, reading all of that into my post. Try praying before you post;

(8) Of course you are contending! You have admitted that you are not replying to this post; but rather, that your judgment has been clouded by previous posts, and you are now responding under that clouded judgment!

[Lafon]

thephnxman

Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”

The content of my response was directed to this portion of your posting ONLY!

And it was to THIS that I responded, saying,

Are you asserting, or even suggesting, that "the ministry" (whom you apparently believe to consist of ONLY "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" - forgive me if I'm amiss in my understanding of that which you've written which has caused me to arrive at such a conclusion) are the ONLY members of the "royal priesthood" (of which every saint is a part - see I Peter 2:9) that have been made to possess 100% of the truth? THAT, my friend, sounds an awfully lot likened to the doctrine of Roman Catholicism which claims that ONLY the priests possess the ability, therefore the authority to interpret the Scriptures. And I MUST, with righteous indignation, and in the strongest terms possible, reject it forthwith!

Nowhere, and I DO mean NOWHERE within the words of my RESPONSE did I either state, or insinuate, that YOU are, or for that matter, have ever been a member of, or associated in any way, with the Roman Catholic Church, ONLY that I perceived your assertion, wherein you "seemed" to ASSERT (not suggest or insinuate) that ONLY "the ministry," (that is, "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers") are those who possess 100% of the truth.

It was to THAT assertion of yours I have quoted above, which you published, and NOTHING more, that I responded, wherein I stated that I considered your claim was "likened to the doctrine of Roman Catholicism which claims that ONLY the priests possess the ability, therefore the authority to interpret the Scriptures." How you can conclude from this statement that I have accused you of being a Roman Catholic is beyond my ability to comprehend!

(6) Your interpretation is not scriptural; you seem to be saying that we have been drafted into the kingdom;

If by the word "drafted," as in a group or individuals selected/chosen from a larger group for a special purpose (e.g., military service), then I certainly DO beg to differ with you, for I am persuaded to believe that I have correctly interpreted our Lord's statement recorded in Luke 16:16, saying, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

As a "drafted" soldier in the army of God, I, just as every saint, also bear the responsibility of preaching about the "kingdom of God." This task has NOT be given to ONLY the "ministry" ("apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and
teachers) as your statement "seemed" to imply! If that is what you intended to convey, then yes, I DO refute it, believing instead that one need NOT be a member of a "licensed ministry" to preach the gospel!

Did not Paul the apostle advise Timothy that he was called (i.e, "drafted") to be a soldier (see II Timothy 2:4)? As a "drafted" soldiers are not the saints of God instructed that their "warfare" is not against flesh and blood, but against "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12)?

(8) Of course you are contending! You have admitted that you are not replying to this post; but rather, that your judgment has been clouded by previous posts, and you are now responding under that clouded judgment!

Please, I humbly ask you, tell me where, within the contents of my posting you have referenced, did I ever assert, or even insinuate, in any manner whatsoever, that I have admitted I was responding to any post other than yours which I quoted? Where did I state, or even insinuate that my judgment, in responding to your comments which I quoted, has been "clouded" by previous posts? I was, and am even NOW, responding ONLY to that portion of your posts which I have quoted, and NONE other, nor is my judgment "clouded" in any manner by ANY STATEMENT you've previously made about ANYTHING!

Do not I, just as you and other members of AFF, possess the privilege of expressing an opinion about a matter, without you attempting to revile me for them? Why not respond, should it be you find yourself in disagreement with my opinions, in a manner befitting a REAL disciple of Jesus Christ, helping me to understand my error? All it seems, to me at least, that you are adept at doing is finding fault, but offer no solutions, only condemnation! And that, my friend, is wrong, not befitting of a disciple of Jesus Christ!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

(1) You know what? This seems to be a preacher's get out of jail free card. "God made me a watchman on the wall so I am allow to dictate your life."
A watchman warns the people. Not my way or hell.



(2) How can a man rule the house of God if he can't rule his own house?



(3) All I am going to say is the bible tells me you shall know the truth and it will make you free. I feel like preachers (apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors and teachers) have messed up the church. They have lend people to believe that there personal way is truth.
This is exactly why there is so much disunity today. People fail to understand that God told us to work out our salvation.

I totally agree with what good samaritan said. The bible backs up his statements.

(1) There is only ONE "get out of jail free card": it's hearing, believing, and obeying the gospel that saves;
and then, "...you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
The TRUE Watchman will always speak: "...thus saith the Lord."

(2) But we, as godly men, are called to govern our house according to His principals.

(3) The truth will certainly make us free: and we are called, yes, the Lord makes us
responsible for our own salvation, and for those that hear us.
Nevertheless, it is not the ministry that has "messed up the church".
It is a LACK of the ministry in the church! It is because of the "one-man rule"
within the body that has caused disunity and discord.
We seem to have gotten back to the "...I am of Apollos...I am of
Cephas...I am of Paul..." mentality. Please don't blame the ministry
that the Lord has established for the church rather, pray that the Lord re-establish that which we have almost lost.

I will close with this:
ANYTHING less than the full Apostolic ministry is denominationalism.

A man once told me: "Brother, it doesn't matter what color it's painted: it will still look painted."