You Can Fake It All

[ILG]

There is no backsliding in denominal churches. Once saved, always saved. That's why you can have people like Paula White, Deitrick Haddon and others live in sin, yet still be on platforms across America.

You are lumping all denominal churches into one lump. Not all of them believe once saved, always saved. It may be time for you to do a little research. I just had an old high school friend tell me she got kicked out of her (very liberal) church choir for divorcing her husband. I know a lot of people personally from denominal churches, Catholic, Lutheran Presbyterian, etc. Paula White and the charismatics on TV are not representative of the vast majority of churches in America. TV preachers are often the laughing stock of the religious world.

You're right. What you posted was a great many have no clue what true salvation is, not that a great many fake it. My apology.

Okay. thanks for that.

I would disagree that they don't know what true salvation is. I was the third generation in the UPC and read the Bible and it's plan of salvation when I was young. Perhaps there are a few who are lazy and don't look for themselves, but not a great many. Especially in the UPC, because of its focus on the Bible.

I'm not saying all in the next generation do not know what salvation is. I'm just pointing out that all of it can be faked and that people do fake it whether they are sincerely faking it or faking it for their own gain and that the church cannot with assurety say who is "in" and who is "out" but they feel they can say who is in and out and do it all the time.

Not in those words, but the post targeted the UPC and suggested that people fake it. Again, just because someone falls or sins, does not mean they were faking their relationship with God. Who are you to say that? I've known men and women who have committed adultery, a Pastor who shot himself, and others who were accused of embezzlement or other things. They had sin, yes, but it doesn't mean they faked it. I spoke with one minister who admitted to sin, and his response was he struggled hard against it, and wanted to do right, but had wandering eyes and got involved with a married woman. He was plagued with guilt but kept seeing her a few times before deciding he couldn't do it anymore and confessed to his mentor.

The UPC is my point of reference and there are people in the UPC that can and do fake it but the church doesn't notice because they follow the rules. So, people struggle. That's the whole point! The question is why the UPC (and others) think they are better, closer to God and all that because of their rule set. When a person points out the sin in the camp, they say "We are only human" but then at the same time they consistently point to sin outside the camp to prove how holy they are. It can't be both ways.

I don't believe for a second this man was faking it. Was he in sin and wrong, yes. Does that mean he faked it, IMO, absolutely not.

I don't know this person so I have no comment.

Sorry, I still don't see anything constructive. Of course terrible things can occur in any church of any denomination. This just sounds like bitter accusations against a former organization of which you used to be a part.

People in the organization say repeatedly that bitterness is the cause of people trying to discuss issues. You can think that if you want. It doesn't make it true. You may not see anything constructive, but I do.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by ILG

It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it.

Repentance is easy to fake. Just go to the altar and look sorrowful.

Baptism. Just do it.

Tongues? I have heard lots of fake tongues in my life. Just sound like everybody else.

What many consider proof of God in your life, standards, are easy to fake, just follow the list.

Who has motive to fake salvation? All those who are being or have been pressured by wives, mothers, husbands, fathers, kids and friends to "get saved".

In a culture that greatly pressures people to get "saved" or go to hell and constantly measures who is "in" and who is "out", there is great pressure on people to "get saved" to get people off their back. They might not even know they are faking because they don't even know what the real experience is. Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula. The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out".

The UPC taught me they were different. But they are not. Some in the UPC have faith and some do not. There is no formula for salvation to prove to another you are saved, no way to say "You are in and you are out".

I've always told people, it was real easy for my wife to speak in tongues because if she didn't, we couldn't get married!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I've always told people, it was real easy for my wife to speak in tongues because if she didn't, we couldn't get married!

LOL! See, there ya go!

[Reader]

Sorry, I still don't see anything constructive.

Then why participate? Is it to be able to keep saying the OP is bashing the UPC because the person is bitter toward them? It's been said. Over and over. We've heard it and taken note. Do you post similar toward those here who continually bring the Bible or faith into question? Over and over? She has more than once responded sharing that more than the UPC could do this. Why continue harping on the OP when that has been clarified?

This isn't being asked to be mean as I do not know you. I would think that if one felt a discussion was of no value, that one would let it be and ignore it. Instead, at least two things she wrote have been stated by you to have said something other than what was written. You acknowledged both. Don't you think it could at least be a possibility that because you felt it was another bitter post bashing on the UPC, that you quickly read through it, read things into it that were not stated and acted on those, and as such dismissed the entire post as not being worthwhile? And even though those things have been clarified more than once, you continue to see no value. It is confusing.....

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

Falling into sin, doesn't mean faking it, no, but one of these district officials was having an affair over the space of 12 years. Was he faking it? Why was no one able to say he is "out" during that time?

Over 12 years, it's possible he faked it.

Originally Posted by ILG

For some multi-generational people, I think it is much easier to fake it than leave.

There will be some fruit inspecting and that is okay. What I am opposed to is the pronounced judgments upon people who have good character but do not follow all the rules and the total acceptance of those who follow the rules but may be having an affair behind closed doors.

I can agree if by "do not follow the rules," you mean they're not following dress standards or other extra-Biblical standards not supported by Scripture.

Originally Posted by ILG

The bottom line of this whole conversation is that Acts 2:38 and standards can ALL be faked and should not be used as a yardstick.

That depends. The Bible is clear on salvation. So the Bible already set a yardstick as you call it. And all through Paul's epistles, he writes about conduct and how Christians should live....yardsticks.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

Over 12 years, it's possible he faked it.


I can agree if by "do not follow the rules," you mean they're not following dress standards or other extra-Biblical standards not supported by Scripture.


That depends. The Bible is clear on salvation. So the Bible already set a yardstick as you call it. And all through Paul's epistles, he writes about conduct and how Christians should live....yardsticks.

I disagree that the Bible sets yardsticks. I think men take the Bible and make yardsticks with it. Again, a person can fake repentance, fake baptismal commitment, fake tongues and fake standards.

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I've always told people, it was real easy for my wife to speak in tongues because if she didn't, we couldn't get married!

Are you just trying to be funny or did your wife admit she really faked speaking in tongues?

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

You are lumping all denominal churches into one lump. Not all of them believe once saved, always saved. It may be time for you to do a little research.

It was done for a point. Just as you lumped everyone in the UPC. Now, you have clarified and said there are some who are sincere. I would say an overwhelming majority are sincere, good and Godly people, and a very small percentage do as you claim. I've done my study and know what churches believe.

Originally Posted by ILG

I just had an old high school friend tell me she got kicked out of her (very liberal) church choir for divorcing her husband. I know a lot of people personally from denominal churches, Catholic, Lutheran Presbyterian, etc. Paula White and the charismatics on TV are not representative of the vast majority of churches in America. TV preachers are often the laughing stock of the religious world.

And I know Mormons, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, etc. Paula white was one example, and there is a reason tbn and these televangelists are popular and make a lot of money. People may laugh, but there are millions who watch and believe every word they say.

Originally Posted by ILG

I'm not saying all in the next generation do not know what salvation is. I'm just pointing out that all of it can be faked and that people do fake it whether they are sincerely faking it or faking it for their own gain and that the church cannot with assurety say who is "in" and who is "out" but they feel they can say who is in and out and do it all the time.

Dress standards aside, do you believe the Bible has a yardstick on how a believer should live?

Originally Posted by ILG

The UPC is my point of reference and there are people in the UPC that can and do fake it but the church doesn't notice because they follow the rules. So, people struggle. That's the whole point! The question is why the UPC (and others) think they are better, closer to God and all that because of their rule set. When a person points out the sin in the camp, they say "We are only human" but then at the same time they consistently point to sin outside the camp to prove how holy they are. It can't be both ways.

And the few who do that are wrong.

Originally Posted by ILG

People in the organization say repeatedly that bitterness is the cause of people trying to discuss issues. You can think that if you want. It doesn't make it true. You may not see anything constructive, but I do.

IMO, there are far more bitter ex-UPC people than there are people faking it in the UPC. I've met a few people who aren't bitter, but the majority I've met are.

[ILG]

Dress standards aside, do you believe the Bible has a yardstick on how a believer should live?

I believe it is much, much less black and white than what I was taught.

IMO, there are far more bitter ex-UPC people than there are people faking it in the UPC. I've met a few people who aren't bitter, but the majority I've met are.

I generally don't run around saying this person is bitter, that person is saved, this person is faking it. I am speaking in generalities of what I have seen. Bottom line, no matter how many are faking it and how many are not, it is entirely possible to fake the whole thing and people shouldn't using a measuring yardstick on each other.

[jediwill83]

IMO it is far easier to label someone as "bitter" than examine their reasons for leaving in a honest manner.Emotions and the way someone arrives at that emotional destination is rarely so simple of a thing to label.When one party claims to have the truth and in many instances claims to have the only truth the only obvious outcome to someone leaving is to slap labels like "Bitter...Backslider...Carnal...Compromiser ect" on them.The side that has been left feels the need to re establish its moral and religious superiority putting the side that has left on the defensive.