Respect as Women

[ILG]

I have been reading a book called Leaving Church by Barbara Brown Taylor. She was an episcopal priest for many years before deciding to leave ministry. She wore a clerical collar and I find her experiences to be similar to mine when I left. Here is some of what she wrote:

"(When I left...)Getting dressed in the morning was the hardest part........my uniform had shaped other people's responses to me......people shifted from normal gear into the most reverent gear they could find. ...They talked about....Sunday School....Vacation Bible School. As well intentioned as it was......it was as distancing as a velvet rope in a museum. I had the clear sense I was supposed to stay on my side of it, where I would not get mixed up in things that were too crude or worldly for me.......People watched their language, they shielded me from their darker natures. They guarded my purity. But sooner or later many of them needed a pastor and neither of us could afford the pretense of my innocence any longer. Like most clergy, I know how to post bond, lead an intervention, commit someone to a mental health institution etc."

I think much of this is true about standards as far as the dressing part. For me, since we had been pastoring for 10 years when we left....I think it was maybe more pronounced than for some others since I left both the standards and my role as pastor's wife behind all at once. This was incredibly difficult. I got a job as a hotel housekeeper for a few months before I found something else. One of the women looked at me one day and said "What are you doing here??" She wasn't trying to be mean. She just knew I was a fish out of water.

It's taken me a long time to land as much as I even have. Having had a "white collar profession" (I was co-pastor) and then stepping out into the world with no college education and therefore "unqualified" for most everything, it was really tough. I did finally get a job as a family advocate at a domestic abuse shelter. I thought the job would have fit me like a glove but the culture and rules tied my hands greatly when I was used to making my own decisions. People largely see you for the role you work in. And, again, I walked away from another job that didn't fit me, even though my job was quite respected. I then worked in a library in a position less than what I knew I could do but I was "unqualified" for another position (that I had done in another town) because of my education level. Hence, my going to school for a while, which I don't regret at all, but have since also moved on from.

Anyway, that's kind of a digression from the topic, but just shows my own path.

So, maybe then it is not the particular standards themselves that are taught by the UPC, but rather the visual message given by them. This same message is given and practiced by other cultures and religions and seems to have the same effect. One thing I noticed Barbara Brown Taylor said is "it was as distancing as a velvet rope in a museum." I think this is true as well. People are more open to me now, for good and for bad. People may be more likely to cuss around me, but they are also more real. They are more human. I missed that while I was in the church....people were too much like ice sculptures, trying to be perfect.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Worldly culture teaches women that their value is related to youthful sex appeal.
Immersion in this culture bombards us with images of casual sexual encounters as being a normal part of the human experience.

The only voice that I have had encountered that teaches that women are to be respected as family, mothers, sisters, and daughters has come from the church.

The ability to see myself as Christ sees me, and not as the world would paint me, has come from the church.

My self respect, ability to live in the world but not of it, to present my body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, orginated in the teaching I received from the Church.

Mass culture is so pervasive that I need the strength, and support of the church to continue to live a holy, separate life. I'm willing to bet that most people are the same.

Without the church, and the teaching that I received, I shudder to think what path my life would have taken.

OP heritage is tied to the holiness movement, and some of the lines of protection that have been drawn may have been drawn a little more sharply then was needful. And there is a slow course correction that is taking place in the OP movement that I can see since when I first became a part of the movement.

But the beautiful truth that is taught, the power and annointing of the Holy Ghost that is experienced, seeing people receive the spirit of God, seeing lives changed, people healed and given hope, these things are precious treasures.

I don't think the OP movement is perfect, how can it be when it is made up of flawed humans, but I'm convinced it is the most perfect representation of what the bible teaches the church should be that exists on this planet to date.

Well said, Amanah! I agree with all of your post, but wanted to highlight what I agree with that makes me stay where I am and where I feel is not a toxic environment.

His Spirit in my life is more important to me than anything. We are a spiritual entity. This Gospel we preach is a powerful, spiritual matter. And, yes, the OP movement is made up of flawed individuals.

I don't disparage anyone's decision on what is best for them and their families. When we sincerely seek God, He is there to uphold us on our journey. Whether the decision is good or possibly outside of His will, He is there to pick us up.

I was particularly moved by something I read in a book by Phillip Keller, A Layman Looks At The Love of God. Everything written here is why we react differently to situations, people and the environment around us. We are individuals and God deals with us on an individual basis, knowing these things:

God in Christ knows all the intricacies of my genetic makeup. He is fully aware of all the interrelated characteristics which were inherited from my parents, grandparents and former forebears. He knows precisely why I am the unique, special person I am. No one else, not even my parents, know this much.

But God knows me in this intimacy. He understands exactly why my inherited features influence me to behave as I do. Consequently, only He can treat me with utter integrity and complete understanding, tempered with compassion.

Only God in Christ, by His Spirit, is fully aware of all the environmental influences which have been brought to bear upon my life since the day of conception. No human being does, not even my own mother.

It is this infinite, incredible knowing that enables Christ to deal with me in dignity, forgiveness and love. He knows all the strains, stresses and pressures that shaped me.

He alone can properly appraise the impact made on me by my parents, my home, my siblings, my schools, my playmates, my teachers, my friends and all other human associates. He knows the experiences, the griefs, the triumphs, the adventures, the work, the impact of books and films and a thousand other influences that molded me as a man.

No one else does or can. Not even I can fully know myself or understand my behavior.

Only God in Christ can clearly comprehend all my thought, all my hopes, all my fears, all my imaginations, all my emotions, all my deliberate choices, all my subconscious impulses.

And because He does. He deals with me in mercy, kindness, patience, long-suffering, justice and total integrity.

It is this dimension of being known to the utmost depth of my being that has drawn me to Christ with unbreakable cords of love - His love.

For though He knows the best, He also knows the worst, knows the noble, knows the wrong, and He knows the deep yearnings of my spirit to be like Him. He treats me with utter truth and total understanding.

I dare not try to run a bluff on Him. Yet, I can cast myself in fearless contrition upon His compassion. I dare not indulge in hypocritical duplicity. But, I can come to Him, anytime, completely assured He fully understands me through and through.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Worldly culture teaches women that their value is related to youthful sex appeal.
Immersion in this culture bombards us with images of casual sexual encounters as being a normal part of the human experience.

The only voice that I have had encountered that teaches that women are to be respected as family, mothers, sisters, and daughters has come from the church.

The ability to see myself as Christ sees me, and not as the world would paint me, has come from the church.

My self respect, ability to live in the world but not of it, to present my body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, orginated in the teaching I received from the Church.

Mass culture is so pervasive that I need the strength, and support of the church to continue to live a holy, separate life. I'm willing to bet that most people are the same.

Without the church, and the teaching that I received, I shudder to think what path my life would have taken.

OP heritage is tied to the holiness movement, and some of the lines of protection that have been drawn may have been drawn a little more sharply then was needful. And there is a slow course correction that is taking place in the OP movement that I can see since when I first became a part of the movement.

But the beautiful truth that is taught, the power and annointing of the Holy Ghost that is experienced, seeing people receive the spirit of God, seeing lives changed, people healed and given hope, these things are precious treasures.

I don't think the OP movement is perfect, how can it be when it is made up of flawed humans, but I'm convinced it is the most perfect representation of what the bible teaches the church should be that exists on this planet to date.

Thank you for this post, Amanah. This pretty much sums up exactly how I feel.

I love the Church!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Amanah
Worldly culture teaches women that their value is related to youthful sex appeal.
Immersion in this culture bombards us with images of casual sexual encounters as being a normal part of the human experience.

The only voice that I have had encountered that teaches that women are to be respected as family, mothers, sisters, and daughters has come from the church.

Amanah,

I would say this is largely true for me and the wider culture does mostly teach women their value is related to youthful sex appeal, at least from the media. Or there is the other side of the coin, women can be respected for their careers but this is also a tough row to hoe sometimes.

Can anyone think of any voices that teach that women are to be respected in the way Amanah says besides form the church?

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Worldly culture teaches women that their value is related to youthful sex appeal.
Immersion in this culture bombards us with images of casual sexual encounters as being a normal part of the human experience.

The only voice that I have had encountered that teaches that women are to be respected as family, mothers, sisters, and daughters has come from the church.

The ability to see myself as Christ sees me, and not as the world would paint me, has come from the church.

My self respect, ability to live in the world but not of it, to present my body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, orginated in the teaching I received from the Church.

Mass culture is so pervasive that I need the strength, and support of the church to continue to live a holy, separate life. I'm willing to bet that most people are the same.

Without the church, and the teaching that I received, I shudder to think what path my life would have taken.

OP heritage is tied to the holiness movement, and some of the lines of protection that have been drawn may have been drawn a little more sharply then was needful. And there is a slow course correction that is taking place in the OP movement that I can see since when I first became a part of the movement.

But the beautiful truth that is taught, the power and annointing of the Holy Ghost that is experienced, seeing people receive the spirit of God, seeing lives changed, people healed and given hope, these things are precious treasures.

I don't think the OP movement is perfect, how can it be when it is made up of flawed humans, but I'm convinced it is the most perfect representation of what the bible teaches the church should be that exists on this planet to date.

Well said!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I was particularly moved by something I read in a book by Phillip Keller, A Layman Looks At The Love of God. Everything written here is why we react differently to situations, people and the environment around us. We are individuals and God deals with us on an individual basis, knowing these things:

God in Christ knows all the intricacies of my genetic makeup. He is fully aware of all the interrelated characteristics which were inherited from my parents, grandparents and former forebears. He knows precisely why I am the unique, special person I am. No one else, not even my parents, know this much.

But God knows me in this intimacy. He understands exactly why my inherited features influence me to behave as I do. Consequently, only He can treat me with utter integrity and complete understanding, tempered with compassion.

Only God in Christ, by His Spirit, is fully aware of all the environmental influences which have been brought to bear upon my life since the day of conception. No human being does, not even my own mother.

It is this infinite, incredible knowing that enables Christ to deal with me in dignity, forgiveness and love. He knows all the strains, stresses and pressures that shaped me.

He alone can properly appraise the impact made on me by my parents, my home, my siblings, my schools, my playmates, my teachers, my friends and all other human associates. He knows the experiences, the griefs, the triumphs, the adventures, the work, the impact of books and films and a thousand other influences that molded me as a man.

No one else does or can. Not even I can fully know myself or understand my behavior.

Only God in Christ can clearly comprehend all my thought, all my hopes, all my fears, all my imaginations, all my emotions, all my deliberate choices, all my subconscious impulses.

And because He does. He deals with me in mercy, kindness, patience, long-suffering, justice and total integrity.

It is this dimension of being known to the utmost depth of my being that has drawn me to Christ with unbreakable cords of love - His love.

For though He knows the best, He also knows the worst, knows the noble, knows the wrong, and He knows the deep yearnings of my spirit to be like Him. He treats me with utter truth and total understanding.

I dare not try to run a bluff on Him. Yet, I can cast myself in fearless contrition upon His compassion. I dare not indulge in hypocritical duplicity. But, I can come to Him, anytime, completely assured He fully understands me through and through.

This is a beautiful thought, and why we must be so careful to not judge one another so quickly. Only the Lord truly knows us inside and out, and while it can be easy to pass judgement on someone for what they do, or do not do, it would behoove us to remember that we are ALL a work in progress, hopefully still on the potter's wheel, and there are times when we must agree to disagree... because as the above so eloquently written says.... we cannot even know or understand ourselves... how much less should we try to understand others.... it is far better to express compassion instead of judgment.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
I was particularly moved by something I read in a book by Phillip Keller, A Layman Looks At The Love of God. Everything written here is why we react differently to situations, people and the environment around us. We are individuals and God deals with us on an individual basis, knowing these things:

God in Christ knows all the intricacies of my genetic makeup. He is fully aware of all the interrelated characteristics which were inherited from my parents, grandparents and former forebears. He knows precisely why I am the unique, special person I am. No one else, not even my parents, know this much.

But God knows me in this intimacy. He understands exactly why my inherited features influence me to behave as I do. Consequently, only He can treat me with utter integrity and complete understanding, tempered with compassion.

Only God in Christ, by His Spirit, is fully aware of all the environmental influences which have been brought to bear upon my life since the day of conception. No human being does, not even my own mother.

It is this infinite, incredible knowing that enables Christ to deal with me in dignity, forgiveness and love. He knows all the strains, stresses and pressures that shaped me.

He alone can properly appraise the impact made on me by my parents, my home, my siblings, my schools, my playmates, my teachers, my friends and all other human associates. He knows the experiences, the griefs, the triumphs, the adventures, the work, the impact of books and films and a thousand other influences that molded me as a man.

No one else does or can. Not even I can fully know myself or understand my behavior.

Only God in Christ can clearly comprehend all my thought, all my hopes, all my fears, all my imaginations, all my emotions, all my deliberate choices, all my subconscious impulses.

And because He does. He deals with me in mercy, kindness, patience, long-suffering, justice and total integrity.

It is this dimension of being known to the utmost depth of my being that has drawn me to Christ with unbreakable cords of love - His love.

For though He knows the best, He also knows the worst, knows the noble, knows the wrong, and He knows the deep yearnings of my spirit to be like Him. He treats me with utter truth and total understanding.

I dare not try to run a bluff on Him. Yet, I can cast myself in fearless contrition upon His compassion. I dare not indulge in hypocritical duplicity. But, I can come to Him, anytime, completely assured He fully understands me through and through.

Kept wrote,

This is a beautiful thought, and why we must be so careful to not judge one another so quickly. Only the Lord truly knows us inside and out, and while it can be easy to pass judgement on someone for what they do, or do not do, it would behoove us to remember that we are ALL a work in progress, hopefully still on the potter's wheel, and there are times when we must agree to disagree... because as the above so eloquently written says.... we cannot even know or understand ourselves... how much less should we try to understand others.... it is far better to express compassion instead of judgment

.

I am so glad to be counted in with such an intelligent, compassionate, spiritual group of women. Seeking God's will for their lives, in spite of all that goes on around them.

[renee819]

I just read this on jrensy's blog, Oct, 2013 issue. This xplains how se ofus think and feel,

Dear Modern Culture,

You exert such powerful influence. BUT I received power after the Holy Ghost came upon me. You tell me to cover up my flaws with paint to make me what I ain’t. BUT Jesus My Creator said I was fearfully and wonderfully made.

You say “if it zips, it fits,” and “its tight, but oh it’s right.” Oh and you also say, “If you got it, flaunt it.” BUT Jesus said, “Oh NO you don’t—cuz I bought it! Your body is MINE, paid with the price of My blood that you might have LIFE!!” woman-writing

1You also tell me I need to be sexy. Show a little thigh to catch that eye…BUT my Daddy said, “Strength and honor are my clothing, and beauty is vain, but a woman that feareth the Lord shall be praised!” My PRICE is far above rubies and you trying to get a FREE glance! My Body belongs to Christ. It is the temple of the Holy Ghost, and not for YOUR eyes!! Honey, you must not know WHO I am…I am the Daughter of the GREAT I AM!!!

I say to you, Modern Culture, you will change. Fashion and style will change. You will do all your tricks to force this world into changing with you. BUT I won’t be shaken. See, I’ve been warned about you. Jesus said, “Be not conformed to this world.” And the truth is, God’s WORD never changes! So at 6 years old, I bought the truth and I’m not SELLING! I won’t be shaken!!!!

AND I SAY--AMEN!

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by renee819

I just read this on jrensy's blog, Oct, 2013 issue. This xplains how se ofus think and feel,

Dear Modern Culture,

You exert such powerful influence. BUT I received power after the Holy Ghost came upon me. You tell me to cover up my flaws with paint to make me what I ain’t. BUT Jesus My Creator said I was fearfully and wonderfully made.

You say “if it zips, it fits,” and “its tight, but oh it’s right.” Oh and you also say, “If you got it, flaunt it.” BUT Jesus said, “Oh NO you don’t—cuz I bought it! Your body is MINE, paid with the price of My blood that you might have LIFE!!” woman-writing

1You also tell me I need to be sexy. Show a little thigh to catch that eye…BUT my Daddy said, “Strength and honor are my clothing, and beauty is vain, but a woman that feareth the Lord shall be praised!” My PRICE is far above rubies and you trying to get a FREE glance! My Body belongs to Christ. It is the temple of the Holy Ghost, and not for YOUR eyes!! Honey, you must not know WHO I am…I am the Daughter of the GREAT I AM!!!

I say to you, Modern Culture, you will change. Fashion and style will change. You will do all your tricks to force this world into changing with you. BUT I won’t be shaken. See, I’ve been warned about you. Jesus said, “Be not conformed to this world.” And the truth is, God’s WORD never changes! So at 6 years old, I bought the truth and I’m not SELLING! I won’t be shaken!!!!

AND I SAY--AMEN!