Question About Submission

[Praxeas]

I didn't say abusive but it seems she is being told, by citing scriptures, she HAS to do something she does not want to.

to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.

to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Mrsnt

Hi! New here. I have a situation with my husband that I'd like y'alls thoughts on.

My husband and I were both raised in the UPC and now are part of the WPF. My husband is very conservative in his beliefs. So was I, until a few months ago....

I have begun studying many points on pentecostal doctrine, specifically the teachings on "holiness standards" and have come to believe that they are unbiblical and hurtful to the church. I feel very strongly about this.

My husband disagrees with me, and thinks that the teachings are biblical. He further thinks that if I disobey his wishes in this area, that I will be in rebellion against him and the Church.

He says that I'm allowed to have my own opinions, but I'm not allowed to act on them.

My question is...as his wife, am I obligated to obey him? I feel very strongly that God is leading me in another direction. I do not want to follow the conservative teachings on dress, hair, adornment, etc. anymore. I don't think those teachings are of God.

I also don't personally believe that I am obligated to obey him if it violates my conscience, since on matters of personal belief we all will ultimately answer to God. I believe that I can still be a good, submissive wife and be true to my beliefs.

I want to do what is right and draw closer to Jesus.

So what do y'all think I should do? Thanks for reading.

Further she wants to know if she has to obey and several of you said yes...BUT my point is should he put her in a position to have to do this against her will?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't say abusive but it seems she is being told, by citing scriptures, she HAS to do something she does not want to.

to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.

to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

Prax, I believe that she SHOULD obey her husband, based on scripture. Her husband probably feels the same, and has said as much. (again, assuming here) Do you disagree with the idea of the husband being the authority in the home? There are areas in which my husband and I disagree, and I defer to his preferences in those areas. Not just in situations that apply to me, but, for instance, things applying to our kids. Let's say I think knee-length skirts on our girls are fine, but he thinks they should wear skirts that are below their knees. I defer to his authority and I reinforce that with our daughters by supporting his preferences even when he isn't around. He can't force me to support him, but he most certainly would agree--and assert--that I should. If you feel that is coercion or amounts to abuse of authority, then I guess we aren't on the same page. I'm for submission to authority, and I believe that the man has authority over his wife. Further, the only time one has to practice submission is when there's disagreement. Submission doesn't even enter the picture when you're in agreement.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Further she wants to know if she has to obey and several of you said yes...BUT my point is should he put her in a position to have to do this against her will?

No, she doesn't have to, but IMO, she should. Should he "put her in a position to...do this against her will?" She has put herself in that position by changing views they shared initially. Now she has the choice between practicing her own (new) views or continuing to abide by her husband's wishes. The latter comprises submission.

Again, though--"Mr"nt isn't here. The only person asking questions is Mrsnt. Her concern needs to be to keep her own integrity and behavior in check. There are ways to handle disagreement in a marriage without upsetting the proverbial applecart. In fact, even if Mrnt is being overly pushy or demanding, that doesn't necessarily change Mrsnt's responsibilities in the relationship. My husband can throw a temper tantrum about something and act like a donkey's butt, but that doesn't give me leave to respond in kind. I'm responsible to God for myself and my own actions; not his.

[shazeep]

Nice; i was disagreeing, but have to agree. Hi, Amanah : )

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The whole "Obey your husbands" fits perfectly into the control freak/manipulator personality.

Maybe the question should not be, should she obey but rather, should he order her to do something against her conscious?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Prax, I believe that she SHOULD obey her husband, based on scripture. Her husband probably feels the same, and has said as much. (again, assuming here) Do you disagree with the idea of the husband being the authority in the home? There are areas in which my husband and I disagree, and I defer to his preferences in those areas. Not just in situations that apply to me, but, for instance, things applying to our kids. Let's say I think knee-length skirts on our girls are fine, but he thinks they should wear skirts that are below their knees. I defer to his authority and I reinforce that with our daughters by supporting his preferences even when he isn't around. He can't force me to support him, but he most certainly would agree--and assert--that I should. If you feel that is coercion or amounts to abuse of authority, then I guess we aren't on the same page. I'm for submission to authority, and I believe that the man has authority over his wife. Further, the only time one has to practice submission is when there's disagreement. Submission doesn't even enter the picture when you're in agreement.



No, she doesn't have to, but IMO, she should. Should he "put her in a position to...do this against her will?" She has put herself in that position by changing views they shared initially. Now she has the choice between practicing her own (new) views or continuing to abide by her husband's wishes. The latter comprises submission.

Again, though--"Mr"nt isn't here. The only person asking questions is Mrsnt. Her concern needs to be to keep her own integrity and behavior in check. There are ways to handle disagreement in a marriage without upsetting the proverbial applecart. In fact, even if Mrnt is being overly pushy or demanding, that doesn't necessarily change Mrsnt's responsibilities in the relationship. My husband can throw a temper tantrum about something and act like a donkey's butt, but that doesn't give me leave to respond in kind. I'm responsible to God for myself and my own actions; not his.

See, this misses my point entirely, which is just because a woman has to obey the man does not mean the man is supposed to order her to anything she does not want.

In other words, repeating, everyone is talking about "Obey your husband" and how she should obey and not HOW the Husband doesn't HAVE to order her to do something she does not want to.

And yes that is coercion to use ones authority and threat of being in rebellion to force someone to do something she does not believe in

Further, she is being forced to live a lie...dressing "holy" because someone makes you is not holy.

So we already delved into the "Wife must obey" but how come we never discuss the flip side of that coin about how a husband should treat his wife?

Guilt trips are not healthy in any relationship. I would to God he come here and read this.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Prax, I believe that she SHOULD obey her husband, based on scripture. Her husband probably feels the same, and has said as much. (again, assuming here) Do you disagree with the idea of the husband being the authority in the home? There are areas in which my husband and I disagree, and I defer to his preferences in those areas. Not just in situations that apply to me, but, for instance, things applying to our kids. Let's say I think knee-length skirts on our girls are fine, but he thinks they should wear skirts that are below their knees. I defer to his authority and I reinforce that with our daughters by supporting his preferences even when he isn't around. He can't force me to support him, but he most certainly would agree--and assert--that I should. If you feel that is coercion or amounts to abuse of authority, then I guess we aren't on the same page. I'm for submission to authority, and I believe that the man has authority over his wife. Further, the only time one has to practice submission is when there's disagreement. Submission doesn't even enter the picture when you're in agreement.



No, she doesn't have to, but IMO, she should. Should he "put her in a position to...do this against her will?" She has put herself in that position by changing views they shared initially. Now she has the choice between practicing her own (new) views or continuing to abide by her husband's wishes. The latter comprises submission.

Again, though--"Mr"nt isn't here. The only person asking questions is Mrsnt. Her concern needs to be to keep her own integrity and behavior in check. There are ways to handle disagreement in a marriage without upsetting the proverbial applecart. In fact, even if Mrnt is being overly pushy or demanding, that doesn't necessarily change Mrsnt's responsibilities in the relationship. My husband can throw a temper tantrum about something and act like a donkey's butt, but that doesn't give me leave to respond in kind. I'm responsible to God for myself and my own actions; not his.

See, this misses my point entirely, which is just because a woman has to obey the man does not mean the man is supposed to order her to anything she does not want.

In other words, repeating, everyone is talking about "Obey your husband" and how she should obey and not HOW the Husband doesn't HAVE to order her to do something she does not want to.

And yes that is coercion to use ones authority and threat of being in rebellion to force someone to do something she does not believe in

Further, she is being forced to live a lie...dressing "holy" because someone makes you is not holy.

So we already delved into the "Wife must obey" but how come we never discuss the flip side of that coin about how a husband should treat his wife?

Guilt trips are not healthy in any relationship. I would to God he come here and read this.

I can't believe people are pointing fingers at her for changing her views. It's her fault. She should be ashamed?

[*AQuietPlace*]

In my opinion, this isn't really a submission issue to begin with. Maybe in part - but the real question is, what do you do when a husband and wife have deep disagreements about a religious belief? (and that's only one of many issues she will face now that she has a different viewpoint on the standards, etc) And trust me, this is a DEEP disagreement.

When an issue this big crops up in a marriage, it needs to be dealt with with great care. Yes, mrsnt needs to be very cautious, does not need to rush into ANYTHING. But she can't just keep her thoughts to herself and go on and pretend as if nothing has changed inside of her. It's simply not possible.

This is not as simple as - oh, it's not a SIN to wear dresses, so just wear dresses and don't worry about it. The Pentecostal standard thing involves an entire *culture*. A mindset. A way of thinking. When you no longer believe in that culture, on the inside, you suddenly feel like an outsider. You don't fit in anymore. Even though you may look the same on the outside, on the inside you're full of turmoil and unrest. When you go to the store and someone looks at you and says - 'Oh, you're Pentecostal' - and they assume you believe a certain way... because that is what your appearance says to them. And you want to scream because you feel like such a fraud.

I'm sure that sounds melodramatic, but if you've lived through it, you know that it doesn't even scratch the surface of the turmoil your mind goes through.

Mrsnt most definitely does NOT need to run out and cut her hair and buy pants. She needs to proceed with great caution. She and her husband will need to work these things out together, and it will take time. Prayer, prayer, prayer and more prayer needs to be involved.

But it's really not a matter of - 'oh, just submit.' It goes so much deeper than that.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

In my opinion, this isn't really a submission issue to begin with. Maybe in part - but the real question is, what do you do when a husband and wife have deep disagreements about a religious belief? (and that's only one of many issues she will face now that she has a different viewpoint on the standards, etc) And trust me, this is a DEEP disagreement.

When an issue this big crops up in a marriage, it needs to be dealt with with great care. Yes, mrsnt needs to be very cautious, does not need to rush into ANYTHING. But she can't just keep her thoughts to herself and go on and pretend as if nothing has changed inside of her. It's simply not possible.

This is not as simple as - oh, it's not a SIN to wear dresses, so just wear dresses and don't worry about it. The Pentecostal standard thing involves an entire *culture*. A mindset. A way of thinking. When you no longer believe in that culture, on the inside, you suddenly feel like an outsider. You don't fit in anymore. Even though you may look the same on the outside, on the inside you're full of turmoil and unrest. When you go to the store and someone looks at you and says - 'Oh, you're Pentecostal' - and they assume you believe a certain way... because that is what your appearance says to them. And you want to scream because you feel like such a fraud.

I'm sure that sounds melodramatic, but if you've lived through it, you know that it doesn't even scratch the surface of the turmoil your mind goes through.

Mrsnt most definitely does NOT need to run out and cut her hair and buy pants. She needs to proceed with great caution. She and her husband will need to work these things out together, and it will take time. Prayer, prayer, prayer and more prayer needs to be involved.

But it's really not a matter of - 'oh, just submit.' It goes so much deeper than that.

Exactly, it's unfair to put this all on her. They need to work this out, lovingly.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

In my opinion, this isn't really a submission issue to begin with. Maybe in part - but the real question is, what do you do when a husband and wife have deep disagreements about a religious belief? (and that's only one of many issues she will face now that she has a different viewpoint on the standards, etc) And trust me, this is a DEEP disagreement.

When an issue this big crops up in a marriage, it needs to be dealt with with great care. Yes, mrsnt needs to be very cautious, does not need to rush into ANYTHING. But she can't just keep her thoughts to herself and go on and pretend as if nothing has changed inside of her. It's simply not possible.

This is not as simple as - oh, it's not a SIN to wear dresses, so just wear dresses and don't worry about it. The Pentecostal standard thing involves an entire *culture*. A mindset. A way of thinking. When you no longer believe in that culture, on the inside, you suddenly feel like an outsider. You don't fit in anymore. Even though you may look the same on the outside, on the inside you're full of turmoil and unrest. When you go to the store and someone looks at you and says - 'Oh, you're Pentecostal' - and they assume you believe a certain way... because that is what your appearance says to them. And you want to scream because you feel like such a fraud.

I'm sure that sounds melodramatic, but if you've lived through it, you know that it doesn't even scratch the surface of the turmoil your mind goes through.

Mrsnt most definitely does NOT need to run out and cut her hair and buy pants. She needs to proceed with great caution. She and her husband will need to work these things out together, and it will take time. Prayer, prayer, prayer and more prayer needs to be involved.

But it's really not a matter of - 'oh, just submit.' It goes so much deeper than that.

I'm a practical, pragmatic person and my opinions reflect that. I'm not the type of person to do anything dramatic in my life, unless I've thought it through carefully and decided it's the best or only option. I realize that saying Mrsnt should submit to her husband sounds trite, but in reality, you didn't advise her any differently than I did.

"Mrsnt most definitely does NOT need to run out and cut her hair and buy pants. She needs to proceed with great caution. She and her husband will need to work these things out together, and it will take time. Prayer, prayer, prayer and more prayer needs to be involved."

I also don't know what your personal situation was like with your husband, but I DO know that it's different when you and your husband are on the same page and when you're not. I've lived through both scenarios, and obviously it's easier to handle when your husband agrees with you. Without going into great detail, there was a short time years ago when my husband was discouraged and didn't want to attend church with the girls or me. It lasted for about 6 months. I never berated him, got upset with him or nagged him about attending church. I let him come around on his own, and eventually he did. It's really a good approach to state your piece and then move on. Let things "marinate."

As for handling standards: Not everyone feels as oppressed by that as others. That's the reality. I really don't mind living by the UPCI rules and I can take them or leave them as my situation dictates. Some women feel they are so restrictive they can't breathe. That can be complicated by over-bearing church leadership, to say the least.

All that said, I've only addressed what I think Mrsnt should DO in her situation, from a Christian POV. I think she should speak to her husband about her concerns when he's willing to discuss it without a fight. I think she should then leave changes between her husband and God, give him time to think differently, and in the meantime, keep peace in her home. I'm not sure why that's rubbing Prax or you the wrong way.

I will concede that I'm a cut and dried "don't really care all that much about feelings" kind of woman. I'm more of a "suck it up and do the right thing anyway" kind of woman. That's why people like you are important to this thread.